Another beheading in France!

This is all so horrible and wicked and no justification for any reasons. Cannot even imagine how you would feel if one of your own loved ones died in this way.

Totally get what you are saying Terri- 100%.

A hugely dangerous situation for the whole of France too, and innocent people.

The situation in France has always been historically different. Partly because of the principle of 'Laïcité/secularity' which followed the Revolution, partly because of the very recent (to me) war of Algeria. Both have resulted in North African Muslims in France, even now 2nd, 3rd or evern 4th generation Muslims- even those who do not wear any traditional clothes, etc- encountering daily discrimination, insults, rejection, of every kind- day in, day out, and massive unemployment.

Building huge resentment and making some young people, especially young men- very easy to target by extremist groups.

Does anyone remember the film 'La Haine'?

Charlie Hebdo poured petrol over the flames, and are doing it again- and a large part of the Islamophobic population is helping carry the can- and doing it again. A very dangerous situation.

There is a massive difference between 'appeasement' and deliberate fanning of the flames. And I am not in any way shape or form, excusing those heinous crimes committed by a few mad men. They carry in their pockets a copy of a postcard sent by French soldiers during the Algerian war- of Arad heads severed and lined up on a stone wall- to encourage them. The Algerian war was recent enough for their fathers to have been involved.

The situation in France is unique totally different to the UK.

Why on earth is this thread in 'chat' ?!?

Because its the sort of thing people talk about to each other. Just talk. Not looking for answers.
Many people just swerve the politics and news threads.

TerriBull

I'm contradicting myself because I agree with your post Galaxy about censorship being subjective and applying such a rationale flies in the face of all that we hold dear about free speech in a democracy. On the other hand it seems that Charlie Hebdo's raison d'etre is to offend anyone and everyone, of course their targets should be able to suck that up, clearly some can't. It's not as if they, the publication/publishers don't know the reactions they may elicit some quarters, any loss of life hardly seems worth it to me. Having said that, I disagree with myself because we shouldn't have to adapt to appease crazed religious maniacs.

Yes, I can see both sides too.
I was wondering the other day, if the teacher ( later murdered) could have given his lesson without showing his class the actual cartoons.Talked about them, and what they represented perhaps? The school has many muslim pupils.
In a perfect world all sorts of things could and should be allowed, but it isn’t is it?

EllanVannin I have all my life believed if your values under attack "stand up and be counted". Yes, doing so does have consequence and reasonable comment, even on Gransnet, gratuitously reinvented and reviled as a means of closing down valid discussion. But if freedom of speech and expression is worth any thing it has to be worth defending.

Agreed- he could have studied the history of cartoons, how they were first used to criticise the king, the nobles and the clergy- at the time of the Revolution. How cartoons also played a huge part in depicting some sections of the population in the run up to wars, Jews by the nazis for instance. And showed cartoons criticising all religions, including Catholicism in France- where the split post Revolution between Clergy and Country were very clear. Show videos of the Guignols - the French version of Spitting Image- and other cartoons in Charlie Hebdo and The Canard Enchaîné - but no- he totally focussed his teaching on one religion only- one that many of his students belonged to, and for which they are often mocked, discriminated against, and worse.

This heinous crime was 100% wrong and cannot be excused. But the current constant provcation by Charlie Hebdo- and large sections of the French population- is fanning the flames and pouring petrol on top.

lemongrove my thoughts exactly. Cartoons, (an area in which the French excell), are problematic in themselves because they are usually violent and racist by nature. They serve to mock and demean, and are very successful in getting their message across.
Either those on the receiving end need to be more ready to laugh at them or they need to find other, more peaceful ways, ways in which to retaliate. Not easy.

X post biba70. Good explanation.

I believe France revised its curriculum in 2015 after the Charlie Hebdo murders and introduced new areas of learning. The teacher was actually a history and geography teacher with additional responsibilty for civic education. The syllabus seeks to emphasise France’s deeply-held belief in secularism.
I also believe it is introduced at primary level which for my liking is way too early. This constant drip drip, wearing away at other religions is not healthy until a child is old enough to fully understand the bigger picture.

Appalling comments or tweet from former PM of Malaysia, something along the lines of "because historically the French have killed millions of people, many of them Muslims, then Muslims should be allowed to kill as many French people as they like". Take such an inflammatory statement to its logical conclusion, people of most nations would be killing each other much of the time. The general public cannot be held hostage for the sins of their nation's past. A very irresponsible statement trying to justify this latest barbarism and could well fan the flames of extremism further.

There is quite simply no justification for such barbarism.

Jane10

There is quite simply no justification for such barbarism.

Totally agree Jane10 and I think by putting it into the "chat" thread you have shown that the issue goes beyond politics, religion etc where on GN too many people come to the discussion with preconceived views on a subject. I far more enjoy this type of talk where we can explore all avenues and share ideas.

Sometimes it pays to be diplomatic,

Unfortunately some people or groups of people don’t have any understanding of diplomacy. Nor do all people understand the value of free speech. I think I would go so far as to say that in Britain today we do not truly have free speech. That’s not to say that I think we should feel free to upset or offend others, but the right to say exactly what they think has been removed. Is that a good thing? I feel it’s a double edged sword to be honest, partly good, partly not so good. But for any group to feel that they can murder so heinously because they were offended, well clearly they are absolutely incorrect about that. I’m pleased that at least one of these vile murderers will have to face justice in a French court.

I admire the way that the French people and the French president defend their secular constitution.

Libertie, Egalitie, Fraternitie.

A great foundation for a state.

So do I varian.

Yes me too varian.

I find the French to be extremely proud of their nation. There are so many things I admire about them. They do have a fierce sense of nationalism which does occasionally slightly tip into racism. Sometimes I feel they don't have enough appreciation of how Muslims feel in France.
I just hope because someone has attacked their right to mock another religion, the French won't feel they have to do it even more. There is such hostility building.

'slightly' is a huge understatement. I have had several assistants who were French Muslims at school in the UK. One of them lived with us and her friends and family visited- the mum, about my age, was the only one who wore a scarf.

Their stories of the day to day racism they experienced from a very young age- were mind blowing. At school, then at Uni- and even more so with job hunting- and later flat hunting. They were all amazed how welcomed they were in UK, ho equal and respected they felt for the first time.

All those were well educated and as said, never wore any signs of their religion. Imagine what it is like for others. NO justification, NO excuse - but background can help see how it is a vicious circle.

Laicité or securality does not apply to all French- a very large portion of traditional conservative French people send their kids to all white Catholic schools, funded by the state. Partly for religious reasons- partly to have no contact with 'the others'. Nice is a hotbed for the Front National and later associated parties. And a large proportion of members are 3rd and more generation of Catholics from Spain, Italy, Portugal, etc.

Yes, biba70, I was treading carefully saying "slightly". You mentioned the National Front. Something tells me Marine Le Penn has a daughter or niece who is very strong in Nice? I remember she spoke very passionately without being dramatic.

Devastating for all involved!

I don’t know if it was really Voltaire who said I hate what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it. Moslems do not follow that . I wept when I saw this cartoon.
On another thread I mentioned the poet Rumi . I could wish more young men of the Muslim faith had studied him. I was introduced to this philosopher poet by a young Muslim women who was learning English.

A priest has been shot outside his church in Lyon but the gunman has escaped.
France must feel like its living on a volcano at the moment