Believing in Biological Sex - a Sacking Offence

Excellent post ,petunia,
Common sense , common courtesy & tolerance covers most situations.

wow farnorth. that is so disturbing. without definitions or accurate counting, we will loose our way here

I don't know how this can be halted to allow us all to take stock. We are l giving away sex based rights, worse, we are insisting that others take away our sex based rights. And it is happening while women are being taken to court over what is a woman or someone has mis gendered another. How utterly crazy this has become.

Its not disrespecting people who are transgender to stand up for ourselves.Noone else will. Farnorth has demonstrated that the powers that be have no idea of the impact of men in women's prisons. I suspect that lack of accounting is widespread.

Institutions are rushing headlong into diversity and inclusivity without proper risk assessments. Yet no one is asking the 50% plus of the population how they feel about it.

Different generations will have different views maybe, but we cant know without asking. The GRA reform was kicked into the long grass in the last parliament as it was so busy arguing about Brexit, but I'm sure it will raise its head again. What are we prepared to do?

But this case has absolutely nothing to do with violence in prisons or women's refuges. This was about a woman who refused to accept that there are any other issues , that everyone should fit in with her belief that there are only two sexes and refused to use the pronoun someone preferred and that's why her contract was not renewed. Because of intolerance and it is intolerance we encounter again and again in this matter. It isn't feminist to be intolerant it is a product of a patriachal society and yes trans-women can be intolerant as well.
Yes there need to be safeguards, but good women's refuges already have safeguards because strangely enough there are some violent women who are dangerous to other women and who don't get through a risk assessment, just as a dangerous trans-woman wouldn't. As for the prison records it might be best to ask for the rape records that have been kept, rape being a crime that can only be committed by someone with penis whatever gender they may be registered as. But choosing to demonise a whole secion of society because of a few individuals is not the way to go. It is what patriachies have done throughout time usually because they were afraid of losing power. Being inclusive doesn't prevent women being women it makes us better and stronger than men.

The woman said 'he' about someone who is clearly male and who presents as male but would prefer to be called 'they'.
She said it on Twitter, not connected in any way with her employment.
Do you really believe she deserved to be sacked for that?

(To those saying she wasn't sacked, but her contract wasn't renewed - what is the difference, for her?)

Here's a picture of the person.

As for the prison records it might be best to ask for the rape records that have been kept, rape being a crime that can only be committed by someone with penis

So if no-one has been raped, everything is fine. Do you really believe that?
Can you really imagine no other problem cropping up?

You couldn't make it up.

FarNorth thanks for posting the link about the "man" who gave birth. I'd heard about it but didn't know the details.

Trisher-while the original post concerned a specific incident, the progress of the thread seems to have moved onto the wider topic. So far there have been some excellent responses. Its good to hear other peoples views, even if we don't agree. I'm sorry if you feel unhappy that we have moved off topic. Personally I am enjoying the views expressed

Sadly I have a wall to paint today so I will have to leave the post til later.

I'm also intrigued to hear more from petunia.

Seems we'll have to wait until they finish painting their wall.

Far North Please read the judgement. The judge tried to find a way to accommodate the woman. She rejected all the scientific evidence produced about inter-sex and chromosome issues and steadfastly maintained there are only 2 sexes. It was her refusal to recognise any other opinions that lost her the contract. It was intolerance of the worst kind. And why shouldn't that person be called 'they?' anyone male, female, trans whatever has the right to ask that.
As for prison assaults of course they happen and of course there are other problems but if someone is specifically interested in looking at instances of violence that include trans-women who haven't undergone surgery and wants evidence I simpy posted the best way to find it.

And pronouns absolutely make a difference. With regard to karen white saying she wants to be in a woman's prison is very different to saying he wants to be in a woman prison. It undermines safeguarding. I cant imagine how anyone could be as cruel to Karen's whites victims as to call karen a woman.
Why do people think we segregate at all. It is not demonising people to say they should not be in womans spaces. If my dad said he wanted to use a womans changing room I would say no this is not demonising him. Women can say no to men. The world will not end.

It wasn't intolerance of the worst kind.
That kind of exaggeration will do none of us any good in the long term
What happened was pure 1984.

This is not about vulnerable transitioning young people this is about adult men abusing women.

It is hoped that there will be an appeal in Maya's case.
You need to be able to voice an opinion.
It is only that. she was not hurting anyone.
It was just feelings.
people hurt my feelings all the time and so what?
Karen White is the most famous Rapist who self ID's as female, went into female prison and committed RAPES and sexual assaults.
There are others and I believe they are now in a separate wing.
This is not about vulnerable TRA this is about grown men abusing women.

OMG I can't believe the excuses being made for this woman who steadfastly refuses to recognise anyone can be anything except one of 2 sexes. No one has the right to say a whole section of the community do not exist. It is (and I know some think it isn't) very similar to the original thinking about gay and lesbians. The reason there was never any legislation about lesbians was because Queen Victoria didn't think it was possible just as this woman thinks there are only 2 sexes. I had hoped we had moved beyond that but some apparently haven't.

What is a woman trisher?

trisher it's not about what she thinks, whether she's correct, or whether people agree with what she thinks.

It's about her right to think it.

I don't know Galaxy? Would you like to tell me? I accept that some think they can biologically examine someone and say what they are but I tend to go by appearances and believe what I'm told. I also am adjusting to the fact that some young people do not want to be defined as either male or female and learning to respect that. If someone wants to fight against patriachy and the established order I'm willing to accept them for however they choose to define themselves, be they man, woman, trans, cis binary or any other definition. It's a mistake to think all women are feminists or even that they understand what fighting the patriachy means.

oldglimmer! of course she has a right to think it. What she hasn't a right to do is to impose her beliefs on others or use them to disrespect other's requests. Suppose for example I believed in a flat earth would you allow me to bring that belief into the workplace and constantly refuse to accept any reference to a globe or a spherical planet, particularly if I happened to be a geography teacher?

this woman who steadfastly refuses to recognise anyone can be anything except one of 2 sexes

How many sexes do you recognise, trisher?

What she hasn't a right to do is to impose her beliefs on others

This whole legal case is about people imposing their beliefs on others who believe in biological sex.

Trisher if you are unable to define what a woman is how on earth am I to know whether someone is a woman of not. Do you think gregor Murray is a different sex because Murray uses the pronoun they. This has no effect on their sex.

As an individual I can and do wear whatever clothes, makeup or jewellery I like just for myself, or not wear any of those things if I choose. I can have my hair long or short or shave it all if I see fit.

As an individual I can choose not to have children, I can choose to have many. As an individual I can choose any career within my skill set, I can choose my body shape and fitness level.

I can do whatever I choose as an individual because my individuality is more important to me than being a woman.

My vagina does not define ME so why would I expect physical attributes to define others? If other individuals feel feminine, want to look feminine and I have that choice then so should they.

trisher your post clearly states "steadfastly refusing to recognise". That's thinking, in my book.

Re M Murray. I would like to state I will NOT call anyone ‘they’. If a person cannot decide which gender s/he is then that person, grammatically is an “It”.

Also, on his logic, it’s now fine for me to announce, when there’s an horrendously long queue for the Ladies, that just now I am a man and walk into the Men’s Loo. (Provided it’s one in a new Mall and clean.)

Oh, and how does this work in France where even tables have a gender?

Trisher, I am asking you directly - what do you think of the term 'non-male' to refer to women, and how do you see that in terms of the discourse of patriarchy?