"Regressive and sexist"

lemongrove

with knobs on ??????????

I couldn't get back online til late tonight.
in what way am I chicken?

Yup. Contrary to populist opinion (I use the word populist advisedly) feminism is about EQUALITY but just like in Orwell it seems just like 'but some are more equal than others'.
I don't think trans women are trying to erase non-trans women. I think some people are trying to erase trans women. I seriously doubt some of the most vitriolic anti-trans voices in society know anyone trans, nor wish to. It's all gone a bit Littlejohn (who contributed to the suicide of a trans woman). www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/mar/22/richard-littlejohn-transgender.

My granny was a very wise woman. She said whenever you see the 'othering' of other people in society without clout and power (I paraphrase, she never used the term 'othering') substitute the word 'Jew' and see whether it looks dodgy and hateful.

She lived through dreadful dangerous times (and was in Germany in 1933). I fear we are in another dreadful dangerous time. She always told me to beware of the signs To be honest, I never thought I'd see such times. I was woefully complacent.

What about three options - male, female and gender neutral, It’s not hate to want to allow women to have their own spaces. It’s hate when you deliberately harass and intimidate natal women who are fighting to maintain women’s rights which is what TRAs do - the wax my scrotum or else transwoman in Canada for example. Read up what’s happened to Meghan Murphy in Canada and numerous female academics in the UK, read up on the hatefilled intimidation of A Woman’s Place and then we can discuss feminism and why TRAs want to eradicate the concept of biological womanhood.

Trisher

I couldn't get back earlier to reply
my examples would include the transwoman in the women's prison who carried out rape and sexual assault and the Canadian examples.

BUT I notice there is no response to what I asked....I have no problem with anyone being trans...I have a problem with self ID
None of my business if people are just living their lives why would I care?..

do not try to insult me saying there are people blah blah....as if I would care....you think I mind, I do not

I mind that women lost the Hampstead swimming pond and I mind that there seems to be no regard for how women are feeling about losing their safe spaces.

You are misunderstanding me.
I have no issue with trans just the self ID part I believe needs talking through.

And most of all I never see a trans woman showing any empathy or sympathy for women. Can you show me where this kind of thing might be? a discussion or a post?

And I have been friends with a few trans women in my life so far. I didn't care. it is the person I judge not the choice.

suziewoozie

yes to what you said.

I am a bit confused as to why some posters think we have sex segregated spaces.

No-one here tha ti can see is saying anything vile like all Tra are violent rapists that is a lie.....
some people think that there is the room for some bad men to use this ruling to take advantage.

no-one hates Tra. well I don't but I don't like to see hard hard fought for women's rights being eroded. And there is a danger of this.
And why don't transwomen start reassuring us instead of attacking us?

And maybe you could explain the split in Stonewall - I expect you think that lesbians who don’t want to have sex with ‘lesbians’ with penises are transphobic? Have you any idea what lesbians have been subject to from TRAs in Stonewall?

Galaxy

what do you mean?

I thought that calling a lesbian transphobic was the one of the most stupid things I have ever heard.
were they serious?

Most lesbians (but not all) I know don't want to be anywhere near a penis.
that is not being transphobic....how ridiculous

Why do we have sex segregated facilities. If it's ok to have people with a penis in womens facilities, what is the purpose of sex segregation.

Pink thanks for your support - I was feeling pretty beleaguered. I do want to reiterate that I think sex segregated spaces whatever they’re for are not just about safety but also dignity, privacy, feeling not just being safe.

Yes - the attacks on lesbians for being transphobic is one of the reasons why a group,of LGB people have spilt from Stonewall and set up the LGB Alliance

pink and others this is worth a read

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/lgb-alliance-group-transphobic-alison-bailey-lesbian-gay-bisexual-a9169091.html

Alison Bailey one of the leaders has had complaints made about her to her Chambers ( she’s a barrister) by TRAs in Stonewall - her employment is being threatened because she believes as a lesbian it’s not transphobic to not want to have sex with a self id-ing lesbian woman with a penis. Yes really really.

You are doing it again suziewoozie attributing thoughts and ideas to me I have never expressed. Could you try to be more understanding please. I find it quite distressing that the only way some women can respond to hate speech is with more hate speech. It's how the patriachy has always worked. It's just sad to see women embracing it.
pinkquartz one of the problems is that self ID is the only way to change gender. You have to live as a woman for two years, effectively then self IDing. Is there anther way to do it?
It isn't helpful to make all-encompassing remarks such as trans women never show sympathy or understanding to natal women. I'm sure some do.

What does living as a woman involve, can you describe it. How does it differ from living as a man.

I've no idea Galaxy that is the legal position. I could speculate- dressing as a woman I suppose, but I'm no legal expert.

It's just the language we use is important. No one is able to define what living as a woman means. It obviously can't be clothes because the clothes you wear are nothing to do with what sex you are. This is why the terms regressive and sexist are used because when we start to ask questions about this the answers we receive are always sexist in nature.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3733895-GC-Doula-hounded-out-of-Doula-UK-Charity

This is a new thread on mumsnet...I don't know yet how to make it a hyperlink.

It says a lot of what I feel and Suziewoozie.
Why do men want to take over birth and tell women what language to use?

I am really bothered that TRA activists have energy to attack women but not to feel and work along with us. It is scary.

If I was pregnant now and wanted a doula I would want a woman who knows about how things feel. Not a man no matter what gender he thinks he is. He doesn't know what a period feels like let alone labour and birth.

If TRA want in on this birthing busines, and tra being doulas, then put your energy into meeting with and working with women.
Changing our language is not important.

and now I must go , its late

I don't have flicky hair. I don't dress in a feminine way and I don't wear make up.....
does this mean I am not a woman?
It has to be more than clothes

The quote that caused the furore on Doula UK is below:

Cancer Research UK dropped the word ‘women’ from its smear test campaign, instead saying screening was ‘relevant for everyone aged 25-64 with a cervix’.

In response Mrs McCarthy-Calvert wrote: ‘I am not a “cervix owner” I am not a “menstruator” I am not a “feeling”. I am not defined by wearing a dress and lipstick. I am a woman: an adult human female.’

This is what was objected to by transgender rights activists.

I was female at birth and still am- My experience as a female is gender specific physically and socially- The same cannot be said of a man who has been medically altered to become as close as he could go being a woman- Her experience as a woman would be considerably different than mine- We'd be equal as human beings, each with our own collection of preferences- But we would be two different types of females, each fighting for specific rights by type- The men who identify as women but do not seek physical alterations are physically male- And men are not women in the same way that the earth isn't flat- I can respect that they identify as women but refuse to be forced to believe that they are and treat them as such completely- I'd support their efforts to carve out their own space and tackle their specific issues but not without healthy boundaries in place for each-

" . . one of the problems is that self ID is the only way to change gender. You have to live as a woman for two years, effectively then self IDing. Is there anther way to do it?"

I don't think anyone is objecting to those who are living out their two years as a woman before taking the final step to surgery or hormone treatment. These are people who are committed to transitioning and will soon completely do so (though the two years of being in-between may not seem like "soon" to them. )

It is the self-IDing of people who are not as committed, or who may intend to be men part-time and women part-time, that raises doubts in many minds about just how sincere they might be. There are hedonists around who would like to experience all the highs they can grab - people wonder could some of the "casual" self-IDers be examples of them ?

There is also the legal aspect, that anyone who doubts the sex/gender of a transgender person, however mildly and without malice, is open to arrest and a charge of verbal abuse - but without getting them to drop their trousers they would have to ask for paper proof.

Saying that abuses are possible of the freedom to legally change gender is not the same as saying that all who change are somehow evil rapists and exploiters, but the possibilities must be minimised. I hope that before legislation is passed here on this, all the fine details and implications are discussed thoroughly and without either being mimsy about it or flinging wild accusations around.

elegran

thank you for putting those points across in a more eloquent way......you are saying what I would want to say