"Regressive and sexist"

trisher, I'm aware of the facts that you shared- And similar fears continue today- I've no idea how many more generations it would take to "teach the fear out of people" or if it's humanly possible to do- Such issues being rooted in us/them/ignorance/fear since?

But I do know this, the most compassionate people are quite clear about boundaries-

Somebody up-thread indicated in so many words that people equipped with a penis are already using women's bathrooms, without womens knowledge of it- Therefore, no harm done- Yet that very act/practice has a facet of deceit attached to it as well as dismissal-

While I'm confounded as to what a solution might be, I do recognize deceit and dismissal-

If someone believes they are female, dresses as a female, lives their lives as a female but happens to still have a penis (for whatever reason) how are they being deceitful? Just because you don't know something does not mean someone is deceiving you.

If is a very big word trisher

And I’d love to hear you views on the Canadian scrotum waxing case. Should those women just have provided the service?

I must admit my views have been shaped by a completely barking radical feminist commune in the 80s that had only female farm animals (presumably they used AI and killed and ate any male offspring) and said if any of them (the RadFems) ever gave birth to boys they'd have them adopted.

I initially thought it was a weird and off-key piece of satire but they were completely serious. They were consumed with hatred. I have no idea what happened to the commune. Hopefully it imploded when they turned their hate on each other as there were no males to hate.

I view terfs the same way, not that I've closely examined their arguments because the first thing I've noticed is the hate and sensationalist stance so I'm not prepared to engage with that level of vitriol. I'm a feminist but I don't hate men. I'd love to smash the patriarchy though!

I saw a video on twitter, ages ago now, where a trans woman got into a nasty altercation with some terfs. It looked like the trans woman was the aggressor until I saw the video (taken by someone else) where the terfs attacked the trans woman first. Naturally the terfs had edited out that bit of their footage.
They're like the Britain First of Feminism.

Terf is not an objective description. Thinking women shouldn’ t be forced to wax men’s scrotum or a woman forced to share a prison cell or changing room with a woman with a penis doesn’t make me a terf but a woman who defends women’s rights to dignity, privacy and safety. Thinking a lesbian is transphobic for not wanting sex with a woman with a penis takes women hating to a whole new depth. Terf and cis are misogynistic words and using them to criticise women is beneath contempt

And perhaps the supporters of TRA on here could also explain why a rape committed by a man with a penis should be recorded as a crime committed by a woman when said man decides to identify as a woman?

trisher, if my life experience as an androgynous looking individual has taught me anything in the area of attraction and preference it's to be forthcoming from the onset- Doing so has invited many open, lengthy discussions-

Others chose to openly label me as something I wasn't- I respected that also because they made what they thought of me known-

Deceit, dismissiveness and exercises of entitlement drive wedges between people- And since wedges are only used to "force" I personally would choose another tool to accomplish the task-

I use a wedge to hold the door open. Not making any particular point, just my personal use of wedges.

True!

I do wish those who think of themselves as feminists would stop accusing other women of saying things they haven't said and of holding opinions they have absolutely denied. I suppose they think that because they are harping on about women only spaces they are somehow better feminists, when actually what they are doing is using the same methods of smear and accusations used by men for centuries. Try accepting that actually there are other ways of thinking and that because someone recognises and understands the complexities of a situation, and wants people to live in peace and harmony it does not mean they support the victimisation of anyone. Perhaps then they could stop regarding this as a battle (because there are no winners in wars), begin looking at reality and work together for a succesful outcome. (But I'm not holding my breath)

I don’t think of myself as a feminist I am a feminist. And I’d take your views more seriously trisher if you explained your thinking referencing some of the specific cases I mention. You could start with the rights of trans women to have their scrotum waxed by women.

And it’s women that are the losers in this battle for their very existence. Not TRAs. Ever

As you appear not to know the court in Canada ruled for the beauticians suziewoozie so I really don't know what you want me to say. I do not approve of anyone whatever their gender victimising or harming another person in any way. I have said this before.

I know full well the outcome - I also know this person harrassed threatened and blackmailed women many of whom were poor, non white and ended up losing their small businesses. This person was a self identifying woman with a penis who had huge huge support in the TRA community both here as well as Canada. So where would you draw the line as to what people like this should have rights? The right to be a bra fitter in M and S?

I had to look up that scrotum thing as I had no idea what that was all about. I know a man who gets his back waxed. He goes to places that do that sort of thing. Apparently lots of men get waxed these days, including their nethers. Sean Connery could have done with a back wax. I always found his hairiness very unappealing.

I understand about DV refuges. I honestly think if there were enough refuges for everyone suffering violent abuse that would help. Austerity has dreadful consequences.

What I object to is the idea that pre-op trans women are dangerous violent rapists and some people think it's OK to be really hateful towards them. Some trans people are vile, some women are vile, some men are vile. It's the singling out of trans women as dangerous and 'other' that's fuelling the hate.

I'm not sure about bra fitters. Personally it's not something I have ever been tempted to try. So I'm really not sure would a woman be essential for the job? What if the woman was lesbian would that exclude her? Would a trans woman be better or worse? There are a lot of gay men in the fashion industry presumably some women are happy being fitted for clothes by them. Perhaps all you can do is choose someone who can do the job and let the customer decide if they want to be fitted by them. Sorry if that doesn't provide the simple answer you wanted.

Elizabeth Warren professed that she was Native American, a belief she treasured that was based on family stories passed down from one generation to the next - When she was challenged by Donald Trump on her heritage she went ahead and had a DNA analysis done- The results revealed that she has a percentage of Native American DNA-

However, DNA testing isn't how Native Americans determine ancestry- Elizabeth then offered a sincere apology to Native Americans for any harm she caused by her claims, that she listened to them and learned-

All of this took place above board, out in the open, openly discussed- She didn't dismiss their preference -

A gay man is not self id-ing as a woman and has zilch to do with being trans. A gay man is a clear type based on sexual orientation. Not gender reassignment. I basically do not trust trans women who have not transitioned and show no signs of wanting to. I do not trust a trans woman who also says they are a lesbian and wants sex with a ‘proper’ lesbian. I once shared a bed for a night with a gay man ( long story) and felt perfectly safe - slept like a baby. I would never have done that with a trans woman with a penis. No trust at all.

trisher
Really experienced bra fitters just look at you (clothed) and know the size! There was a brilliant bra fitter in the big M&S at Marble Arch who could literally size you up with a look. I was gutted when she retired.

I never knew that London Granny I was imagining quite intimate examinations. In that case presumably anyone could do the job. There are a lot of people I don't trust suziewoozie sometimes I am probably right but not always. I would hate to feel I distrusted someone simply because of their physical attributes.

I’ve twice had bra fittings with shops that didn’t measure but when they brought the bras for trying on, we were in a small cubicle, the adjusting involved close contact and some inevitable physical touching . I would not want a transwoman involved in that process - my first question would be wtf was attracting them to that role? It’s not transphobic to not want someone with a penis dressed as a woman being in close physical contact with me in a confined space. I do not trust trans women who have so little respect for natal women that they want to share their spaces and make them feel at the very least uncomfortable and at the worst physically threatened. A man genuinely wanting to transition should have some understanding of how a natal woman might feel threatened by them.

It’s not just their penises - it’s why they want to be in my space. My space.

A LOT of hate in here. Not what feminism is about at all.

I do wonder given that surgery can be difficult to get and that to obtain a Gender recognition certificate you have to live as a woman for two years what you expect trans women to do suziewoozie? Should they perhaps place themselves in a sort of purdah for two years or even longer if they cannot get surgery? Should they use men's toilets even though they are dressed as a woman? You want to ban them from places because you don't feel safe, where then are they supposed to go?