Trans Children

children and young people are choosing
But some people are questioning whether the trans ideology that is being taught in schools is influencing SOME children to make a decision they would otherwise not make.
I don't have any evidence one way or the other on this one, I don't know that studies have been done to conclude on this yet.
However, if you think that people don't choose to do something because they are influenced easily when vulnerable I refer to the fact that 900 people chose to join a cult and kill themselves.
"Reiterman has argued that it is impossible to separate Jonestown from its political and social context. The “Peoples Temple was – as many communes, cults, churches and social movements are – an alternative to the established social order, a nation unto itself”, he wrote in Raven. “The Temple I knew was not populated by masochists and half-wits, so it followed that the members who gave years of labor, life savings, homes, children and, in some cases, their own lives had been getting something in return.”

He “recoiled”, Reiterman added, “when outsiders took the attitude that they or their children would never be crazy or vulnerable enough to join such an organization. Such complacency is self-delusion.”

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/17/an-apocalyptic-cult-900-dead-remembering-the-jonestown-massacre-40-years-on

Once more I include a link which you are of course free to ignore.

I think most people are just trying to have a healthy, honest, debate which doesn't try to simplify it down to trans is all good or bad but to look at what is actually happening, and to try and ensure everyone gets the best help they can, and to acknowledge that what is the right help for one person or child might not be for another.

No I'm saying that children and young people are choosing to be defined as non-binary which effectively answers those who are posting about gender roles being less defined.

without anyone posting a single link or source.
I have provided links/sources within the comments I have made. I do agree it would be helpful if everyone who cited information tried to do so, but please don't say, inaccurately, that there isn't a single link or source.

Those posting about wanting less division and more flexibility that is precisely why some children and young adults are choosing to be non-binary and are using the pronoun 'they' rather than 'he' or 'she'

Can you expand on this, please? Are you saying that people questioning the idea of gender as a construct is somehow causing children to choose to be non-binary? I would have thought the reverse would be more likely (ie giving a binary choice, rather than arguing for less division); but I am not an expert.

Perhaps you could provide a reputable link to your source, too?

What "evidence" agnurse. There are a lot of posts on this thread makig accusations and allegations without anyone posting a single link or source.
Those posting about wanting less division and more flexibility that is precisely why some children and young adults are choosing to be non-binary and are using the pronoun 'they' rather than 'he' or 'she'

The evidence shows that 70-80% of "transgender" children will identify as their birth gender after puberty.

I had an uncle who liked dressing as a woman from a young age; his life was made miserable when his mother found out so he moved away and lost contact with the family. 60 years ago it was such a shameful thing. How much better that there is more tolerance.
My cousin had a little boy who always liked bright colourful things and they were quite happy for him to dress in whatever he wanted. After his sister was born, he became absolutely determined he wanted to be a girl. A sceptic might think there was a perception to him that girls were more precious but I'm not sure that would be correct. He is still under 8 years old and he has changed his name, dresses like a girl and is referred to as she. The GP made life awkward by refusing to the change the medical records and reported the parents to the Social Services who did not take action. The fact is, this little "girl" is far happier as she is now and although I worry that she will feel that she HAS to stay that way, I think her parents will support her decision to become a boy again if that is the way she wants it. It all seems a bit odd to me but I am happy to treat her as a girl if that is what she wants. I just hope they don't intervene with radical treatment until she is old enough to make an informed, mature decision.
I wanted to be a boy when I was younger and was always referred to as one of the boys. However, there was no question of me wanting to change sex, I just wanted their privileges. I'm still happier working with power tools rather than performing so called women's jobs!

We all need to be more accepting when young people do not fit into convenient boxes and allow time for them to grow and then decide.
If a girl by sex wants to be a boy by gender then accept this but also say that nothing will be done until a certain age like 16 because this is a fluid time for changes to occur.
Not put pressure on them and also do not tell them it is wrong to feel this way.
Make it acceptable in society that they can be "questioning" and that it is legitimate to be fluid.

i wish we would stop the pressure to conform and also stop using hormone blockers....that is a way to conform after all?
I don't trust that a child or teen will not change their mind.
I have said before that I went through this myself and then strangely so did my daughter.
In the end we are both happy to be female.
My daughter still says she is glad she wasn't given a chance to alter her body because she would have taken it!
Her body has now given birth multiple times and she breast fed all her babies.
She could have lost this experience if hormone blockers had been used.

Also, from the BMJ:
www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l5647
Critics had said that the researchers had downplayed interim findings that might suggest increased suicidality.

And the researchers had not submitted the annual progress reports required by the NHS Health Research Authority (HRA), which promotes patients’ interests in health research. Also, despite the full study findings remaining unpublished, the NHS changed its policy to allow GIDS to prescribe these drugs to children under 12 in established puberty.

Here we present new allegations that the researchers might have broken rules when seeking ethical approval. They might also have misinterpreted another study’s findings about potentially worrying effects of the drugs on changing bone density.

All of which raises a lot of questions about safeguarding and informed consent and risk-benefit analysis in my mind with regards to medication.

I think a lot comes down to whether or not you accept gender identity as a concept. I don't really. I think that a lot of it comes down to what is expected of girls/boys or men/women, rather than what is innate - we basically learn our gender roles, rather than being born into them. Consequently, of course there are those who feel that what is expected of them is at odds with their preference (as opposed to at odds with their 'actual' gender).

I also think that as long as the way of dealing with this is to agree that there are distinct gender roles, and that someone can therefore be in the 'wrong' one, there will be a perceived need for a medical solution.

I think (and I am not presuming to know) that it would be better all round if there were fewer assumptions and expectations about gender, so that everyone is accepted for who they are, rather than where they 'should' fit on an artificial scale of gendered roles.

Hugshelp, assuming that it is correct, that these drugs are even considered to be given to children is absolutely disgraceful. How could a child ever understand the seriousness of the possible side effects of these drugs? Are their parents being given the relevant information? Trans people should be adults and therefore able to give informed consent before these drugs are used.

If it isn't YOUR body or YOUR life it isn't YOUR business.
err, so nobody should be talking about it? But you are Gagajo.
Is expressing concern at 6, 370 recorded deaths which might have been preventable being, hysterical, judgemental, and offensive somehow?

Gagajo, you are absolutely correct that it isn’t anybody’s business except their own - for adults. Children are a completely different matter, issues of safeguarding are extremely important in any organisation where children are present. It seems that sometimes safeguarding issues are being brushed aside in the rush to accommodate possible, or actual, trans children. This cannot be right. Nor can it be right that, as shown on the link FarNorth posted, organisations that are extremely pro trans, are encouraging parents and others concerned with children, to seek treatment at an extremely early age. My opinion, as a parent, would have been, wait and see. I have a gay son, I waited until he was ready to tell me, even though I had wondered previously. A conservative (small c) attitude seems to me to be eminently sensible in this area. The priority must be the safety of the child, whether the child is possibly trans, or whether the they are not. Safeguarding is everything.

Transgender people are waiting up to two and a half years for initial consultations at NHS gender identity clinics.

The average wait from receiving a GP referral to getting a first appointment is 18 months.

For a FIRST appointment. NOT for hormones. NOT for surgery. NOT for anything other than the first chance to see a doctor.

THEN there is a LOT of time spent with a psychologist.

So even if you did have a 4 year old who wanted help, they'd be 5 1/2 before they ever saw the doc. Not that many 4 year olds have this intervention.

SO. Possibly a 12 year old? 13 1/2 before seeing the first doctor. At least a couple of years of ongoing monitoring. 15 1/2.

Not quite the hysterical pills and surgery fast track being touted on here.

Yup. Mucho hysteria.

Some people have gender issues. Some people have sexuality issues.

Animals just do and shag what they want. No one tells them they're wrong or freakish. No one bitches about others 'indoctrinating them'.

Trans is normal. Gay is normal.

If it isn't YOUR body or YOUR life it isn't YOUR business.

According to an article shared on mumsnet and from figures released by the FDA, there are big concerns with the safety of drugs like puberty blockers.
"More than 26,000 of the events associated with the two hormone blockers, Leuprolide acetate and triptorelin (which includes Lupron and similar drugs used by clinics), were classified by the federal agency as “serious,” including 6,370 deaths. The drugs, which dramatically lower testosterone and estrogen levels in the body, are linked to life-threatening blood clots and other complaints, include brittle bones and joint pain."

If this is the case should a child be allowed to consent, (and it's not even fully informed consent regardless of whether the child is fully able to understand and decide if this sort of data isn't provided), possibly without parental consent to this sort of treatment?

That's not to say they have to conform to anything in terms of dress, hair, name, etc etc - those things are all fully reversible and carry no likely harm to the child.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3696990-thousands-of-deaths-associated-with-drugs-given-to-trans-children?watched=1

I have had a look at the article linked to from mumsnet and the FDA data behind it, I'm not sure I fully understand all of it, but it does look legitimate and alarming to me.

I think there are valid reasons why children are treated as minors, who aren't responsible at under 16.
Hence they can't get married, vote, drink, smoke, or be held responsible for crimes in the same way as an adult would.

It seems ridiculous then, to suddenly assume that they are sure enough to start transitioning.

Isn't it possible (or even probable) that, in the 1700s, some women found the restrictions placed on women made them feel uncomfortable and they envied the freedoms men enjoyed.
That might go some way to explaining them dressing in male attire and engaging in male activities such as going to sea and joining the army. It would have seemed much more exciting than sewing and keeping house and does not indicate that they had leanings towards thinking themselves male.

I think it should all be left until they are much older

I think it should all be left...finis.

Hang on now we are saying that teenagers don't know their own mind?. I would imagine there are all sorts of possible conditions and mental health problems. It's why they are given counselling.
social contagion Really!!!! your language is so informative.
People used to think very much the same things about homosexuality.

maddyone
Gender dysphoria is becoming the norm here. Eventually, those humans who, throughout their lives, identify as their birth sex, will be oddities.

trisher

There is evidence of an alarming condition called Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD), where a child, most commonly a teenage girl, claims to be trans with no previous evidence. There is ample evidence that this may be a social contagion rather than an actual disorder.

Some of the mothers of girls with ROGD state that their daughters were never given opportunities to consider whether they actually were trans, and that if the parents themselves questioned the diagnosis, they were written off as "unsupportive" and "transphobic".

Realistically, we are turning children into science experiments without knowledge of the benefits and harms long-term. At the very least, this is incredibly dangerous.

I popped back into this thread thinking ‘oh it’s still active, I’ll have a look but won’t be surprised if it’s starting to get a bit heated’.

It is.

FarNorthyou say
A young child is told by adults 'You can be a boy/girl from now on' and they believe the adults without having any idea of the implications.
Can you post a single instance where the child has not initiated the idea, or is this just a figmentof your imagination?
You seem to rely a lot on things posted on line. Perhaps what you really need to do if you want to campaign on this matter is to actually meet some children and their parents.

I think it is just a sick trend. We use to tomboys for girls who liked sport, climbing trees etc. Boys were usually referred to as quiet and placid children. I think it should all be left until they are much older.