Gdcs' bedtimes - frustration!

Oh do stop fighting trisher and witzend!!!! Scoring points off each other is so childish, and I bet you are old enough to know this.

My daughter made a rod for her own back by her own admission with her youngest child. Even at age 10 she would not go to sleep without her mother with her in bed.
Witzend as you are called upon to babysit often when your DD goes away I do think you are entitled to have an opinion because you have to go through this when you are putting them to bed. Good luck to you all and I hope it can soon be sorted.

My D rarely slept for longer than an hour, 3 times in 24, right from birth. By the time she was 12 months old I was exhausted, mentally and physically, and living on my own.
One day of no sleep, I finally snapped. I dismantled her cot and bed, removing them from her room and left her with the mattresses and cushions on the carpeted floor, duvets and blankets plus soft toys, books and a low light bulb made up her new bedroom. Her bathtime routine was moved to 8pm then story, cuddles and into her bedroom by 9.30pm and a stair gate fixed to the door. She very quickly settled into a 3 hour sleep routine anytime between 9.30 and 6.30, playing quietly in her bedroom when awake.
She asked for a bed at age 7, up to that time, she loved her room as it was. Drastic solution but it worked for us, and yes I had health visitors checking on us, and all agreeing that it was a practical, safe solution.
She is now a happy mother and wife, with 4 lovely GC who all sleep well at night!
OP, I'm sureally your DD and SiL will find a solution, maybe offer to settle the children while they take an hour or so to go for a drink or quick meal. My daughter and SiL do that and it's become a catchphrase that even the GC use. "Are you taking advantage and going out now Nanny's here?" 7yr old granddaughter asked 6 weeks ago. They laughed and yes, they "took advantage" and went for a quick meal and drink.

Could be the solution rests with you as the grandparents...refuse to overnight with kids until they’ve taught them to self settle.

I had my boys 1 year apart and became a single parent very early on. From the day they were born it was a bath at 6pm, a feed a cuddle tucked up in bed by 7pm, they didn't know anything else so never rebelled. Being consistant pays off big time.

Give the parents New Toddler Taming by Dr. Christopher Green and get a copy for yourself. Chris Green is an Ozzy paediatrician. He is excellent on sleep issues - very pragmatic and simple common sense! The book is written in a light and humorous style, so is very accessible. I think that even if the parents don't change their behaviour, you can apply 'gran's rules' and believe me, children do accept that and will respond. They know you love them, so leaving them kindly, but firmly when it's time to sleep will work after the first few times, as long as you stick to your guns. BTW I think it IS your business if you are doing the babysitting!

I agree with OP, Trisher is misinterpreting the post.
The OP has done nothing wrong, she has not interfered, she is just worried for her family.

There is a LOT. A LOT. Of extremely severe criticism on social media of parents who sleep train & teach young children to self settle.

IMO good sleep hygiene is such a valuable gift to give children.

My own mother had issues when we were young and we did not have a good bedtime (or daytime but thats another thread..) routine...

As an adult I still massively struggle with winding down and getting off to sleep at night no matter how tired I am. I now take sleeping pills just to function and worry about the side effect.

Not being able to "self settle" is not necessarily something people grow out of if the habits arent there as children. Lots of adults like me struggle with "sleep hygiene" and it affects EVERYTHING: physical health, the amount of exercise you can do (if tired from bad sleep), relationships, work...

Lots and lots and lots of stuff on social media about the bad effects of sleep training (which IMO only apply to EXTREME borderline abusive sleep training, not normal sleep training, but all are tarred with the same brush) but no consideration of the BENIFITS of good sleep hygiene, and the risks of not having it!

I am not criticising the parents in the OPs post BTW. I am talking about the impossible position they find themselves in, as their peers will talk about sleep training as if it is the WORST thing a parent can do...

So they must feel a bit trapped in the middle IYKWIM

You people are over-estimating people.

The type of people who could contribute to civil unrest in a no deal Brexit are not necessarly the types who have a history of violence/aggression and extreme views.

A few days of food/fuel supply instability, gridlocks on roads, delays in wage payments... and it would happen. And it wouldnt be a small group with extreme political views.

Oops...not brexit unrest thread..

I like your thinking Crafycat.

I was in your position with one grandson Grannybags - it was really upsetting. I couldn’t leave anyone weeping on a regular basis.

I could have written Witzends post myself, one branch of our AC/GC are exactly the same - GC still awake at midnight then children and parents falling asleep on chairs and sofas. But when they stay with us we have set bedtimes, bedtime stories or 1/2 reading and then lights out. They just accept it without argument because it's 'Nanny's house, Nanny's rules'.

Self-soothing and self-settling are abusive techniques to get children to sleep. As a parent or grandparent, you're basically saying that if you cry at night I’ll ignore you regardless of your cries and screams.

However, the parents that stay with their children until they are asleep are accused of raising entitled brats.

There's no way to win as a parent.

My grandchildren were the same ( 2 & 5). Then my daughter moved house, put them in the same room and let them get on with it! Worked a dream and now they chat away before dropping off when they are ready, usually within half an hour. I think they just needed company and hated being on their own.

Leaving a child "screaming" in distress is abusive.

Leaving a child whinging while they wind down and learn that bedtime is not play time is not.

Extreme sleep training can be abusive. There are plenty of caring loving ways to go about it. There is nothing NATURAL about kids being up and stimulated at night time! "In the wild" humans would have no artificial lights and noise at night, and would have to be quiet to avoid attracting predators. Some "natural" parents should maybe ponder that..

Do we really need to be unkind to each other if someone disagrees about something?

It seems to be the modern way 3 out of my 4 children have done that with their families.They get no time together,one Mum especially is so exhausted she goes to sleep with her children nearly every night,I don't think it helps a marriage.I never say anything as I treasure lying down next to the little tots,they do eventually go to sleep unaided,
seems to be older parents ?

My DD - eventually- used ‘sleep training’ - I think there are guides on Google

Well, we're having them for 4 nights in July, while dd and Sil go to a wedding in France. Gdcs will be sharing a double sofa bed so it'll be interesting to see how that goes! If the younger has given up his daytime nap by then (he'll be very nearly 3) it might well be easier.

They were supposed to share that bed at Christmas, but what (almost inevitably) happened was that one parent ended up in that bed with one of them, and the other Gdc ended up in the proper spare double with parent 2.

Thank you for all supportive posts. I do appreciate them.

I don't read that the parents see it as much of a problem as you do, yes they are tired, but what parent with preschoolers who works isn't. They should be able to admit to being tired without anyone suggesting they do differently. I expect that the children and parents like to have a bit of time together in the evening after being apart all day, and if a parent falls asleep then obviously they needed the sleep. It's completely up to them what they do. the time will come when the parents do have time in the evening together, You did what you felt best with your children, and they are doing what they think best. There are gentle ways to get a bit more time, some children will fall asleep if mum tells them she's going for a wee, and she takes her time, sometimes just being very boring at bedtime is helpful. They'll work out what works for them and their children eventually

Many years ago some friends of mine allowed their daughter into their bed every night. By the time she was a teenager she and mum shared a bed and dad was relegated to sleeping in the child's room.
She didn't grow out of it!

Oodles is also right... just because new parents might sometimes off load about being tired, doesnt necessarily mean they want things to change, or want it used as evidence that they are doing it wrong etc...

Sorry but I have never heard of sleep hygiene. I know what sleep means and I know the meaning of hygiene but can't understand how the two go together. Sorry.
Back to the post, could maybe you have the two children to stay for a week, and try sleep training them. Might be hard on you but it just might work and the parents can then carry on.