Presumed Consent

quizqueen None of us should have power over life and death, where do you draw the line? It smacks of Nazi Germany where only those whom the government deemed worthy received treatment.

In my working life I will continue to treat whoever regardless of their views/lifestyle or any crimes that they may have committed. I would not be able to face myself if I didn’t fight for all my patients life’s with equal passion. To do otherwise would make me less than human.

I have no trouble with my organs being used to save someone decent but I would certainly object to, for instance, a murderer’s life being prolonged with my precious body.

I also disagree that the system of harvesting organs would not be abused. Of course it would as every area of human endeavour has been corrupted by the criminally intended and this would provide many opportunities for unintended consequences up to to and including state and government misuse of body parts.

In China, when there are big political conferences, they move prisoners into the area and set up transplants for the delegates:- a murderous harvest indeed.

So, while I am generally pro donations and would make them myself, I think the question of presumed consent is fraught with moral difficulties.

I also disagree that the system of harvesting organs would not be abused. Of course it would as every area of human endeavour has been corrupted by the criminally intended and this would provide many opportunities for unintended consequences up to to and including state and government misuse of body parts

Call me naïve but I think more of our NHS than this.
“Presumed consent” has been the case in Wales, has it not?
Has anybody noticed the dramatic rise in the death rate? No, I didn’t think so.
The one thing that bothers me is that the U.K. is way down the donor league table with 14 donors per million of population compared to 34 PMP in Spain, 27 PMP in Belgium and 23 PMP in France .
Type 2 Diabetes along with an ageing population are both factors in exacerbating the demand for organs, currently expanding at a rate of 8% per year. The resulting mortality rates for patients awaiting organ transplant mean that on average 500 patients die each year while waiting for a “deceased” organ.
So there is a problem.
To all those who shudder at the prospect of donating their or a loved ones organs, how would you address that? Just shrugging our shoulders and tutting is not going to be enough.

I do not agree with an opt out system of organ donation. I am sure all my reasons have been mentioned already.

As soon as the England opt out list is available I will sign onto it. I do not carry a dontation card. I do not have it on my driving licence ( and I had a very difficult job when I was re newing my licence recently because of the question about donating organs - but that is another story).

My family know I don't agree. They do not either. I would not give consent for any member of my family to dontate organs if the decision is mine.

And..... I don't want anyone elses organ either ( not as I think the chances for that would be high anyway given how the system works). If my number is up. Its up and that is that.

Medical science is becoming a Frankenstein science and following behind it is a lottery of life and death. I am sure it has and will be abused even without proper evidence available ( mainly because statisitics are not collected on increased deaths but rather only on increased donations - the later seem to have risen considerably in wales since opt out took place. ( but for every donation, there has to be a death - how many of those have been just a result of reaping on presumed consent and how many might (?) have been helped is not a question that can be answered.

Maw “Presumed consent” has been the case in Wales, has it not?
Yes, but rates of donation haven’t gone up (see previous link that I posted), and the pool of potential donors has gone down, because people have opted out, whereas before opt-out, their relatives’ permission could have been asked.
Better rates of donation are linked to better facilities and systems within hospitals.
To all those who shudder at the prospect of donating their or a loved ones organs, how would you address that?
I don’t shudder at the prospect of donating my organs - I shudder at the idea of the State thinking it can do what it likes with our bodies after we are dead, without permission from next of kin.

There was a huge outcry several years ago when it was found that tissue had been removed for research purposes from children’s dead bodies at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital in Liverpool, without their parents’ consent.
Parents were distraught and many received financial compensation.
Can anyone explain to me why removing organs without consent is any different?

I raised the question of whether my organs could be used as I have had cancer and someone suggested I could leave my body to science. Now if I have no problem with my organs being used - why do I feel squeamish about leaving it be used for students to practice

I must admit to being a bit of a hypocrite about this topic. In theory, of course any bits of my body or my loved-ones bodies which can be used should be used. But ... but ... when it comes to my children (adults now, but you know what I mean), I would find it incredibly difficult to consent. I once heard someone say "I want them to return as intact as they came." That's how I feel. I know ... I know ... that isn't logical, isn't rational and, given that I don't even believe in an afterlife, isn't even understandable. However, that's how I feel.
Having said that, as my 'children' are now fast approaching 40 and are well able to make their own decisions, and both agree with presumed consent, I hope I would be brave enough to agree should that awful day ever come.
I would feel differently if asked for consent in my husband's case though. I guess it's having given birth to them which makes the difference and that they will always be my 'children.' He is someone else's 'child,' so it's ok.
(I am aware that this is a bit of a stream of consciousness reply. I've tried to make less so, but given the subject matter, please be understanding.)

ourkid we all feel things through the prism of our own experiences. I don’t think your feelings are hypocritical at all.
I don’t know how I’d feel in that awful situation. I think I would feel so overwhelmed by the loss of my child I wouldn’t be able to think rationally about anything.

abbey ^ - Two years after Wales adopted an “opt-out” system for organ donation, there is no evidence that it has increased the rate of transplantations.^

See: Hawkes Nigel. Welsh opt-out law fails to increase organ donations BMJ 2017; 359 :j5659

I watched my mum and others die slow painful deaths whilst on dialysis from kidney failure. Young people in their 20's spending half of their lives hooked up to a dialysis machine and the other half so tired, bloated and weak that they had almost no quality of life. My mum would not have qualified for a transplant as she had several other issues, but some of those youngsters...... well its heartbreaking.

I am all for the assumed consent . What good are my organs to me or my family when I am dead? Yet they could give life to someone else.

Hence the reason Magrithea to talk to loved ones and tell them how strongly you feel about this. If I knew anyone in my family disagreed and might object- I would stick my donor card on a short note saying you do NOT want relatives to over-ride your decision.

Grampie- would you ever consider accepting an organ fr yourself of for your spouse, children or grandchildren?

I know it is a strong point of view- but if you are not prepared to give, you should not be prepared to be a recipient.

abbey, yes an honest position for yourself. But let's imagine one of your children or grandchildren are in dire need of an organ - would you refuse one on their behalf? Would you have refused when they wer minors and in your care?

let's imagine one of your children or grandchildren are in dire need of an organ - would you refuse one on their behalf? Would you have refused when they wer minors and in your care?

I think if a parent refused a transplant on behalf of a child jura which the medical staff felt was the child’s only chance of survival, they would apply to a court for permission to override the parents’ wishes.

I think if a parent refused a transplant on behalf of a child jura which the medical staff felt was the child’s only chance of survival, they would apply to a court for permission to override the parents’ wishes.

And quite right too JaneA

yes, of course - I am talking about a moral dilema here, as I am sure you realise.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43699485

This says that there was a record number of organ donations in 2017.

Doesn't quite fit with the idea that opt out has not made any difference does it? Those organs came from somewhere .

The problem is that statistics do not give a clear picture.

Jura, I have always been very clear that I would not accept organ donation for myself or members of my family if I were in the position to make that decision ( assuming a child was not of an age to make a decision for themselves) .

Of course the law might over rule me. Fortunately that does not apply to me now.

The opt out is only just coming in everywhere abbey. This increase was obviously happening anyway.

I understand some religions are against organ donation and I have no problem with that .For the rest of us I cant think of a legitimate reason not to donate something you wont need at the end of your life.Especially when it may give not just the recipient but the whole family a second chance at a decent life
.I would go further and let the authorities creamte us all ,for a very small fee ..Funeral directors are morally corrupt...they work on the bereaved to make more and more money when many cant afford the high cost.Would make it much simpler if all funerals were state run albeit with small personal details.like flowers allowed.I know I see this differently because I dont place any sentiments on the remains ..thats all the are REMAINS.The person I loved has left the structure ,I dont visit graves or put up plaques .I remember them where it counts in my head and my heart .I neither need nor want the theatre of a funeral .

paddyann I agree re remains. It is perfectly possible to have a body cremated without having a ceremony and all the additional costs.
However I do think there is a benefit in a gathering of friends & family after a death.
I have no physical memorials, nor want them or miss having them, for my parents. If I had lost a child I might feel differently.

abbey, may I ask, is that for religious reasons? If any of my daughters or GCs needed a transplant- I really don't think I could refuse if one was offered. For me, I think I'd say- if there is another recipient with their life ahead of them esp. with young childre - please give it to them- I've had a wonderful life. I hope I would.

paddyann, again totally agree with you. Once someone is gone - the rest is totally unimportant- And oh I agree about funeral directors ;)

Oh paddyann thank you. Just thank you so much . X

Most societies have ceremonies for significant events in the life cycle.

Unfortunately, in modern day society these ceremonies have, I think, become rather tarnished by the profit motive. As paddyann says, people often feel obligated to spend large amounts of money they may not have on weddings and funerals. I think it is particularly distasteful for funerals when people are at their saddest and most vulnerable.

Having said that, many people feel the need of a ceremony that marks the deathof a person dear to them. But such ceremonies do not have to be wildly expensive or sophisticated.

Sorry, I've gone off the subject. I think the new opt out system is a good idea. I can imagine the terrible anguish of seeing a loved one dying slowly in pain and distress for the want of an organ that is no use to the deceased person. Such a waste.

Can I just point out that this opt out rgan donation argument doesn't apply everywhere and those who live in countries who consider themselves freeer than us wont let it fly. So why should we have to be like Europe rather than the free world? ( just asking). I know how you all love the EU at gransnet.

Personally I do not like the idea that what is in my body should be considered to belong to my disrespectful snake in the grass elite governmental people. First they get control of body parts, then they decide who gets them and soon after that, it will be a case of the rich, famous and in the gang getting precedence over everyone else.

Lets face it, if you do donate, you don't have any choice where you organs go now. They could end up in the body of an addict who destroyed his/her own.

But whatever floats your boats people. You carry your cards and you opt in. Why force me to do the same?

Oh.... yeah, I remember, a lot of people refuse to donate and the idea is to harvest as many organs as you can.

Jura, I am not religious, but if it takes becoming so to have the right to hang onto my organs I will become religious.

I don't like cremation either. My family have always been a burying one. My mum is in a grave and I have visited it regularly since she passed. Its important to me that she has a place after death as well as she had one in life.