Presumed Consent

Grandtante - many people who need organs are children- many are parents of young children, who desperately want and need their mum or dad to live. Like the lovely lady my niece gave a kidney to, a few weeks before she got married to the love of her life she had found again- because there was no organ coming forward, and because that was the only way to give her a few years more to see her children grow up a few more years- with the love of their mum.

Your post took my breath away.

Janeainsworth is quite right about the Liverpool Pathway and, having known of someone dehydrated to death under that scheme, I - too - worry about unintended consequences. I can no longer support the charity which invented it for all the best reasons, but then failed to check how it was being administered - causing distress and anguish to patients and relatives.

However, this is fundamentally different.

A young relative of mine has had two kidney transplants which saved his life and allowed him to enjoy times with his children which he couldn't have when tied to a dialysis machine half of each week. Everyone around him - including me - would give to transplant after death. We all carry cards but an presumed consent system is bound to make more people have the "conversation" with relatives beforehand.

And heartfelt thanks to the two families who had the courage in a time of abject grief to take the decision to save the lives of strangers.

oops A presumed consent system, not AN.

Sigh. I know organ donation is a good thing.
My concern, and why I started this thread, is this position of presumed consent. Maybe if I trusted the state more fully I'd not mind but it could be a slippery slope. I'd hoped people might have picked up on the potential for presumed consent to live donation. Whose bodies are ours anyway? Oh well.
Carry a donor card. Sign whatever, tell your family your wishes. But don't just presume its OK. It just might not be.
Go for the positive choice don't legally enforce a negative one.

I agree with what you are saying about presuned consent, but pardon me for appearing ignorant- live donation?

First some background information.
My husband was diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy. Within several weeks of first going to the doctor he was lying in a hospital bed and we were told he would die without a transplant. He received his heart transplant 6 days later. That was over 10 years ago.
Prior to this I can remember a young boy on television, with his parents. They were desperate for a transplant as he would die without it. He received a transplant and he was back on television with his parents saying how happy they were!! I can remember being appalled with the celebration over another child dying, so theirs could live!

My reaction was very different to this. I found it very difficult to be happy about my husband’s transplant, as for it to happen, some other family had lost their loved one. When everyone sent best wishes and said how happy they were, I really struggled. I know that person would have died anyway but I could not feel joy at someone else’s loss.

We are grateful for the gift that he was given, because that is what it was, a very special gift! I have often lit a candle in church for his anonymous donor and I have prayed for both him and his family.

The extra time my husband received has seen him able to walk his daughter down the aisle, see both myself and daughter graduate from university and get to know his grandchildren.

Despite this I disagree with presumed consent. The gift of an organ, should be a choice, not a case of reaping someone’s body when they die, without any thought to what they or their relatives wanted. It is their body, nobody else’s! What right does anyone else have to steal what belongs to someone else?

I am not against donation, I have been on the organ donor register for over 30 years, but that is because I want to be! I have spoken to my family about my decision and about their wishes should they die. This is what should happen, people need to make their choices clear. It shouldn’t be up to anyone else, other than you and your family what happens to your body after you die!

Thank you for your eloquent post chucky

JAne10 is this what you are worried about?

"The WHO estimated in 2007 that organ trafficking accounts for 5-10% of kidney transplants performed annually across the globe, and that in India, around 2,000 Indians sell a kidney every year.

In 2001, a survey was conducted among 305 individuals who had sold a kidney in Chennai by a team of four doctors—Madhav Goyal, Ravindra L. Mehta, Lawrence J. Schneiderman, Ashwini R. Sehgal. “Ninety-six per cent of participants sold their kidneys to pay off debts. The average amount received was $1070. Most of the money received was spent on debts, food, and clothing," said a report titled Economic and Health Consequences of Selling a Kidney in India published in The Journal of the American Medical Association on 2 October 2002."

It is certainly dreadful that the poverty stricken are forced into live organ donation in order to feed their children.

I hope and pray no father in this Country puts their child in for a routine operation and finds later that one of their kidneys has been removed for donation, but as long as there is no financial benefit to the donor, at least we avoid that.

My husband was killed in a road accident. We both carried donor cards but in the shock of his sudden and unexpected death I was numb. I will always be grateful for the woman police officer who asked me if he had a donor card. Being able to donate heart valves and corneas helped us all as a family to find something positive in such devastating . circumstances. Also we were contacted several times over the next few months telling us that the donations had been successful. We were so grateful for the police officer.

That's not actually what I meant B9exchange but it is horrifying.
I just wonder if in the long term a govt could presume that a person should give up eg a kidney rather than choose to.
The altruistic donors I referred to are people who decide to donate an organ while still alive to a complete stranger.

My personal opinion is that organ donation should continue to be voluntary and consent should not be presumed. My daughter carries a card but I am against it and will opt out for myself. My reason being is that I would hate to take the chance that my organs could be donated to someone I deemed undeserving, like an abuser of animals or a terrorist, and I would not want to think I had helped them to live a minute longer .

Who are you quizqueen you set yourself up as the judge of who is worthy of life and death?

I despair of such arrogance and lack of humanity and thank. God that our doctors and nurses do not play God in the way you aspire to.
This is becoming less and less like the Gransnet I signed up to.

Fortunately, most people do not abuse other people or animals, or commit terrorist acts, so the chance that a person's organs will be transplanted into a murderer or terrorist are, I think, pretty remote.

In any case, people who give blood don't know who that blood will be transfused into. Using your rationale quizqueen, on the offchance that somebody who had committed dreadful acts might benefit, nobody would donate anything - for medical purposes or indeed to any organisation that helps people.

Where do we opt out of “presumed consent”?

Two friends and I were discussing this earlier today and we all think,independently, that it is wrong to presume organ donation. We all thought that it smacks of dictatorship and not the way things should be done.

Well that’s all right then isn’t it?

I think it would be pretty mean to opt out but, if push came to shove and you yourself needed a transplant, to then hope someone's family would donate their loved one's organs to help you live, would be utterly selfish.

Dictatorship! ??? Just read the info. You can opt out!

www.organdonation.nhs.uk/all-about-opt-out/

Miepl
That's wonderful. 24 years of donating. If only everyone did that.

quizqueen
Where would you draw the line or are animal abusers and terrorists on the blacklist but wife beaters, robbers, addicts and drink-drivers etc who kill other road users, are ok?
It's a good job we don't know to whom we donate.

Thanks Chucky - I totally understand your sadness alongside relief.

We had a talk at U3A from a man who had received a heart donation. It was fascinating. He was so grateful that he raises money for the transplant hospital by giving these talks. he also gives regularly gives talks to medical students about what it is like from the patients' point of view, which helps their training.

one 'gives' too many!

I don’t see the problem with opting out. It’s just the reverse of opting in. If you can’t be bothered to opt out which probably will be quite easy through your Dr hopeful. Then your organs can be used. I can’t believe that Drs would let you die just to use your organs. Hopefully I’m right on that one. Many people die because people don’t opt in, but wouldn’t mind if it came to it

I carry a donor card and am signed up online. But I am weirdly annoyed with this new idea. It is my body, or my loved ones. Someone needs to speak to someone, even if only quickly, about what to do. Yes, once you’re dead etc. For me, I’m not worried. (And they probably won’t want my aged organs). I would like a bit of consultation before they harvest one of kids, though.