De-cluttering

An excellent post*Tillybelle*. You've put a different perspective on the subject of "hoarding". By the way, I dislike the word intensely. And I am not by any means a keeper of "stuff". I have moved many times in my life, each time disposing of personal items, furniture and an assortment of items I wish I could have kept. Now, at the age of 70, I have to begin thinking of again downsizing so my children won't have a monumentous job tackling my personal items at the end of my life.. Ah, it does keep me busy constantly sorting through drawers and closets.

I can't abide mess and clutter, cabinets stuffed with ornaments, shelves and mantlepieces groaning under the weight of bric-a-brac and piles of papers and magazines in old fashioned magazine racks.
Imagine all the cleaning (or not) that it entails and it's stuff which is rarely picked up and admired after the flush of any new purchase wears off.
I like a clean, dust, pet-hair and clutter free environment.

In fact just reading and writing about this subject makes me want to declutter even though I declutter all the time at least 3 times a year.

The reality is that you can’t change your husband. Not at 30 and certainly not at 71. It’s a matter of putting up or shutting up unfortunately. I could not live with that. It’s me or stuff. My parents are hoarders and their stuff has driven out all four of their children out of the house very early on. Hoarding is a mental health problem where things are more important than people.

You are definitely NOT alone Madmeg! Our house is not as I like it BUT there must be something in the wind as DH as done some decluttering and we can now see the top of the low cupboard in our hall!!! Progress!!!

Tillybelle - your posts were very sensible and sensitive. My parents were both collectors, which might look like hoarding to some, but I understand it’s not. There’s a huge difference between the people who have an obsession with keeping complete rubbish, and those who just have lots of “stuff”.
Hope your house situation gets sorted- sounds like a complete nightmare.

My brother has tidying issues. The most bizarre thing I saw in his house was a BBQ in his bedroom

Madmeg. I'm deeply moved by your extremely kind reply. Thank you so much! I do hope you find a satisfactory solution to this. I did find some You Tube videos helpful, some not of course but then even the ones that were not as helpful (a minority) kind of help by highlighting what does not work! If your husband could get involved with cataloguing his collection or putting together his "workshop" items, he might also find some of the YouTube videos interesting, but as far as I could find, they are all made by women which probably isn't so helpful to a man. I think he might see your point of view that it's easier to clean if things are stored neatly.
When I was packing up before the builders came I looked at the decluttering advice and found this useful:
On whether to keep something think of 4 things:
Love - Do I love it?
Use - Do I use it?
Space - Is there space for it?
Lifestyle - Does it fit my life?
The last one means, if for example it is skis and you never go skiing now, then they go.

The same person made a distinction between mess and clutter:

Mess = untidiness of things not in the right place. 1. out because of being used. 2.waiting organisation. (This is my house because of major repairs going on.)

Clutter = Things that do not add value to your life.

Thank you again for such a kind reply. I had my heart in my mouth because I was scared I had hurt you. I ended rather abruptly unfortunately. I have been struggling with a migraine for about 3 days and was not typing very well. You could easily have been angry with me, so it does you great credit for your kind heart and generosity. I can see your husband has a good friend as well as loving wife. God bless you both! I lost my husband after 23 years of deep unhappiness, over 25 years ago, so do cherish him even with all his foibles! A good kind man is such a treasure even with his heaps of old electrical items and plastic flowers!
Wishing you both well, and Happy New Year!

I have a 72 year hubby hoarder...maybe not as bad as Madmeg’s...but bad enough for me.... it is VERY teenagee and VERY annoying .He keeps piles of magazines in his bedroom and the loft ( all about Railways...before you lot get any ideas!!! )..and recently we’ve been visited by mice( which I of course have to deal with). But after years of telling him to de-clutter..which fell on deaf ears... I decided to take the decision to ‘do-it-myself’. He never goes into the loft... so once a month I go up there on a pretext and clear some of his 40 year old mags out...( I kid you, not 40 years)...and more discreetly go into his ‘room’ to dust and hoover and take 4/5 mags at a time and bin them!! He hadn’t noticed yet ... and won’t if I’m careful. As long as you take just one or two more than he has deliver monthly he won’t notice. I suggest Madmaeg you start taking charge...if he complains ignore him...unless of course you like mice!!!

Oh, Tillybelle, what a lovely person you sound and thank you for your long post, which was most useful. I have read every word you have written and can see where it is all coming from, and that I must therefore re-assess my approach to all this.

Thank you all.

Meg

It was a clever friend who came up with the idea of photos, Smurf, not me. It's great, though, isn't it? You could start by taking photos of the old birthday cards then ditching the physical ones.

I do know what you mean about toys. Just tonight I've been doling out old Beanie Babies that belonged to my dds to my GC. I've a plan for the rest of them to go to a charity shop - that's another empty shelf in the cupboard!

SueDonim
I love your idea of taking photos of books and other non-vital memories, and then getting rid of them. I know I am a hoarder and have a problem, but after a cancer scare a few months ago, which has now been fortunately been treated,I am hoping to try really hard to declutter stuff which has been gathered here over the last 32 years. Sadly I’m still attached to toys from the 80s and 90s from my 2 children AND toys from the last 10 years from my teenage GDwho has lived with me for all her 15 years but is about to move 700 miles away in a few days. She is also a hoarder and is about to leave 75% of her clutter here. My house is now so cluttered, mainly with sentimental (but useless items such as old birthday cards going back donkeys years) stuff and my ever growing card making stash which grows when I’m not looking so that I can’t invite friends her. I’m not sure where to start, but I’m going to look seriously at the websites recommended by EmilyHarburn for inspiration. Wish me luck as I will be struggling on my own to declutter . I have a long term friend but it always ends in him getting really stressed and me getting upset when he tries to help. He is no better as he now rents a container to store all the stuff he cleared from his late mum’s house over 3 years ago including over 100 banana boxes of books he has collected over the years and can’t bear to part with! Maybe there is no hope for either of us .

seadragon You sound like very interesting people! I have hobbies too and do lots of sewing - well, not at the mo as the builder has messed up the house too much so that's about three more large plastic boxes all packed up.

Apologies to all for a few typing errors in my long message above. I'm having a bit of vision trouble. Couldn't check it very well. Migraine.

Concerning books, I also am getting rid of them. Loads of them! In the end I just took them to the Recycling Centre and they put them in the "paper and cardboard" bin! I steel myself for the next visit.... I must admit one of my favourite excursions is to what we used to call "The Tip". I am really into a big household purge for New Year. I do it each January but this year I'm really being tough on everything!

I reiterate what I learned about "Hoarders". The label is a bit too quickly applied sometimes, I was told by a lovely lady who works as a Clearance Officer for such households. Men are as frequently represented among them, having piles of papers and books and machinery and electrical stuff, I was told. Our age group - born just after WW2 to parents still undergoing rationing, have a deep fear of being labelled "wasteful" and see alternative uses in everything. The younger generation however have become too inclined to throw away things hence the need to teach people to recycle.

"Fear of loss or poverty or just having nothing - no resources," lies at the bottom of many hoarding people's actions.

Most important - do not label anyone a hoarder, it could destroy them and do not make decisions about other people's things. In your home have designated spaces/rooms for each adult's things and don't criticise. Only intervene if health and safety demand. Bear in mind fire hazards and the need to escape if there is a fire and how a Firefighter will need to enter a room or need a pathway through, say to a person in bed.

Lastly, any suggestions? I'm having trouble right now because being disabled I can't get all my clean washing back upstairs in one go and have to leave it till I can manage. It gets me down, leaving it on the chair by the stairs.

Good luck all of you with husbands who are so attached to all their "stuff". When my husband died it was difficult. He had so many things in the garage and shed that I couldn't even recognise!

I don’t wish to sound harsh,, but playing devils advocate. Why would you want to change him after all these years. I feel that may be you need to ask yourself some questions.
What has changed in your life, that makes this such an issue now that you make a public complaint. Why is he hoarding, does he need comfort of familiar objects.
If this is bugging you to the extent of making you desperate. Take charge, no messing, involve someone else he is close to, so they car arbitrate, and tell him the junk goes.
Happy New Year and good luck, let us know how you resolve the problem.

Madmeg Having suffered at the hands of a criminal builder who has left my house almost uninhabitable, I have some experience of the "Hoarder" situation because I have had to live with things in boxes all round me waiting for damaged floors to be taken up and other serious problems to be addressed. Because I have had to keep my items normally kept in cupboards, in boxes, I was accused of "Hoarding" by my children but when I asked for help from the professional people who clear hoarded types of houses, the lady immediately on entering said "this is not hoarding! You are having work done! Look you have labelled the boxes! Also it is very clean." However, prior to her lovely words, I felt almost suicidal when my children tried to make me throw away my dinner service etc. because I could not put it away until the building work is done. I shall never forget how I felt when they decided to treat me like this and not see me as I really am and what has actually happened to me.
So, I have learned a lot about being treated as a Hoarder. I tried to learn a lot about how to organise a house too by going on YouTube, because I have no cupboards etc at this time. As for being treated as if I lived with things in boxes around me on purpose, I learned that it is extremely demeaning, painful, and intolerable to the point that you want to die! You feel that those who should understand are the ones who are being the most judgemental, cruel and selfish. You feel they do not care about you and do not see you as the person you really are.
You must act with the softest and gentlest of kid gloves. These are his rooms. These are his things. They are not making him ill as far as I can tell. They are not causing the walls of the house to explode or the floors to fall in. (My floors had wet rot because neighbours have covered my damp course and air bricks).
As for keeping broken electrical things, he cannot believe that he will not mend the items one day. I am nearly his age. I was brought up never to throw away something expensive (especially electrical as they are expensive) without trying to fix it. He and I are post-war babies born when rationing was still in place. I still tear up old sheets for floor cloths and napkins. We feel we might cause a terrible problem if we throw away something we ought to re-use. So we decide we shall mend it. Then we find, we have arthritis, time rushes by, the jobs pile up.... Being old and not being able to get things done is horrible. Being told you can't do things makes you feel worthless, unloved, no use, disrespected and a waste of everyone's time.
As for the video tapes and machines like the printer that doesn't work, I would try and find somewhere to put up shelves on which you can store these. Possibly the garage or a dry shed. I suspect taking them to the recycling centre would cause him too much distress. If you can show respect for his items, rubbish though you believe them to be, and try and store them in a more user-friendly way, it might cheer him up. Then his wardrobe might house his clothes more easily.
I have known several older men who started collecting things after retirement. When they died their then old and frail widows had a lot of trouble getting rid of all their "stuff". If you can start collating it into a shed on shelves now, so he can go and look at it and think about what he wants to mend or whatever he thinks of doing, it may help for later on when you are both much older.
But from what I have learned about hoarding, rule no 1 is -never to interfere with another person's things or tell them what to throw away! They must decide it themselves. Never start by deciding they are a hoarder. They must decide it themselves. Only when there is a danger to health or safety can you try to intervene and then remember to be respectful. These are not your things. These are not your rooms.
Please start trying to see this situation another way. You are calling him a teenager. Don't you love him? Are you dismissing all those years when he worked and you watched those video tapes and when the things now not working were in use? Are you ignoring his life that he shared with you, - that he no doubt was so happy to give to you and be useful doing little jobs like printing out things and sorting out the TV or whatever item went wrong? How can you suddenly rubbish all those 50 years of his adult life, the he worked and was so productive, by saying he's like a difficult teenager? He is getting old and he wants to be the capable man he always was , but the jobs are piling up on him. He can't cope with the money that's being wasted because so much has gone wrong - the printer, TV lamps... He does not like all those videos that were so much pleasure going to waste just because CDs and Blue tooth have taken over and there's more money to pay for all that on a pension that he can't do over-time to boost.
See things from his perspective. If you love him, treat him with respect.

Great idea SueDonim!

I don't think I could live with someone like that.
It would cause me too much stress.

I have a "collector" here, he loves sending away for things at present we have three gadgets for measuring Blood Pressure recently bought,I mean you can only use one at a time, then a digital thermometer arrived the other day, how many times a year do you need to check your temperature?He leaves all these things in his little office (it is little) old bills, receipts all over the cupboards, we live in a bungalow and when anyone comes they can see this mess, as his office is opposite the group of easy chairs,there is too much to remove to close the door so thats not an option. He wont tidy, but I occasionally when home alone, tidy the papers and throw old receipts away.In the garage we still have at least six boxes with things in since we moved house five years ago, he has not opened them, might as well get rid! Rant over.

Thank you all. I'm heartened by those of you who appear to be "on my side" as I feared a lot more criticism, but I've also listened to those with other views. I think it will have to be a compromise along the lines of "if it will fit in your rooms without making them unsafe/unhygienic/a sight, then okay".

I must add that some of the stuff has no sentimental value at all, he doesn't even know where some of it came from or why he has got it, and some of the stuff is actually mine that I tried to throw out.

Hey ho,

Meg xx

His behaviour is a fire hazard. Can you ask the local Fire Department to do an "inspection" and then write a letter?
In my apartment block someone had a small fire caused by an electrical lamp. It spread to the stuff on the floor and spilling out the cupboards, and a major incident was only prevented by the quick thinking of two neighbours. The flames were already 4.5 feet in the air.

We/I are in this position, but it needs serious attention as we are due to downsize in the next few months---or we are supposed to be doing IF he will sort his room, the loft and the shed.
I have just asked what all the magazines are that are so carefully stored on the shelves in the alcove in his room (one of our spare rooms that the children have been using over Christmas., by climbing over his belongings to get into bed)
Answer, they are all the copies of Which that we have had in our 45 years of marriage!!!!!
I refuse to take them (and his other clutter) to our new home, so perhaps we will never get there :-(

My nrother was a hoarder but a lot was paper to do with his aircraft spotting hobby. Luckily it was confined to his study although my Sister in law is rather untidy in the house. My niece started by scanning all the paperwork onto the computer but after he died it was unbelievable what we found that he had hoarded. When he was younger we nicknamed him secondhand Rose because if anyone was throwing any furniture out he would have it. If he bought a new TV he kept the old one even if it didnt work.
As I live abroad I think my children would have a lot to sort out but it is all good usable stuff like kitchen equipment and gadgets. But difficult for them when we dont live in the UK. If my husband died first I would have quite a time selling all his motor bike gear a lot of it new and he hasnt even ridden the motorbike for over 4 years. Always remember that one man's rubbish is another man's treasure.

Seadragon When my Mum died she had a large bookcase full of old books, some dating back to the 1870s, lots of leather bound novels from the 20s, 30s and 40s and all the children's annuals she and her sister were given. I kept the children's books and offered the others to charity shops and book shops - they didn't want to know, said nobody reads books now. The local library said if they were more than ten years old they didn't want them. Then she picked one book and said "Oh a lady was asking about this title last week...." but she still wouldn't have it! I tried antiquarian book shops for the older books but unless they were valuable or first editions they weren't interested. One seller even said "They'll burn well", I was horrified. Eventually the Salvation Army took them. What they do with them I don't know. It really saddens me to see books so undervalued.

As Spring approaches could you perhaps suggest redecorating his room(s) - fresh wallpaper and/or paint, and perhaps another room as well so that he doesn't feel you are singling him out. The room would need to be emptied to do that and while decorating was in progress you could 'spirit away' some of the really unnecessary clutter. A few trips to the recycling centre should do it. As you move his remaining possessions back put them in different places, he probably won't notice the missing things, and you will at least know that the room is clean and fresh.

My Mum was a "never throw anything away, it might come in handy, or back in fashion one day" hoarder. Clearing her flat when she died was like a walk back through time, and I'm ashamed to say I now have some of the 'stuff' she lovingly saved, most of it small things of my grandmother's so they don't take up much room. I have labelled everything so that our children will know what they are, where they came from and any interesting history attached to them. It is then up to them what they do with them after we are gone.

PLEASE stop trying to take control of this by diagnosing it as an illness. It's his preference, with which you disagree. That's all. Fight fair.