Schools banning skirts.

I suspect you would put me in your SJW group! But I am not offended by the term as it probably broadly describes me and I am not ashamed of who I am. However I agree that if you make a rule you have to follow through because having clear boundaries are easier for kids to deal with. However how you follow through might differ with each miscreant.

I have 4 boys and 1 girl . Have worked in Pre prep, primary and senior schools. State and independent.

Do not care what a pupil wears, it comes down to respect. Which if through home circumstances is not taught there it has to be taught at school.

Abbey you seem to blame girls, they like boys are being persuaded by media how they should dress and behave.

Boys should be taught to treat and react to girls how they would and expect boys to treat and react to their sisters!!

Location and financial situation should not make any difference to the respect between the male/female divide.

Boys should be taught to treat and react to girls how they would and expect boys to treat and react to their sisters!!

The point I have been making all along is that the boys are being respectful. They do not goad or in any way encourage the girls. They do treat them like "sisters" - or to be more precise, they actually walk away. This is why I am not keen on laying blame across the board because they boys are behaving appropriately. We have a few girls who are not being either respectful of themselves or others.

As I did mention, some of the older boys have petitioned the Head about the behaviour of these younger girls because they are conscious of any consequences and how easily they may be "blamed" in the situation.

If the boys were to blame, I would say so. This is girls and only girls. Girls behaving like laddettes and lose women. I speak as I find. I am not going to balem everyone to save the blushes of some loud and uncouth girls who are acting out because they see it on Love Island.

PECS , for the record, I am not an SJW. I generally do not buy into the liberal education agenda. I don't mind if you do.

If you want to call me a " Right Wing Fascist" I could quite well accept that you might see me that way. I am not, but I do have clear views , even if I don't express them. Most people will know where they stand with me in real life. Where I work I am not alone. I am part of a more silent majority who say little when the other side get going. I don't have a bleeding heart on my sleeve.

It isn't good for us all to be the same really.

I know the T word is banned so I won't use it. I find it very difficult to believe that girls are behaving badly and that all the boys are behaving appropriately. Look round any high street, who is name calling, shouting requests for sexual practices >. not any girls at all in my experience. I heard a group of boys shouting at some modestly dressed girls recently - the boys used really foul language and shouted out exactly the sexual practices they wanted from the girls. The girls ignored them, stayed close to each other and walked on.

Hmm! That sounds a bit different. Now we are talking a handful of lairy girls with low self esteem/ poor ability to read social situations. Their parent / carers the same ilk or despairing? If they do not respond to school rules is exclusion helpful or harmful? If you are seriously concerned for their welfare are they on a CP register already or at least "on the system" ..I assume so?

A handful? No around two hands full. The problem is they are causing others to be disquieted. If they see these girls getting away with it, they think its "Cool" and may try it themselves. Mostly these others can be brought into line quickly but its a problem that needs addressing at the source - the laddettes.

I am talking about how each gender behaves in school. The boys clearly have taken on board the message about behaviour and are not breaking these rules in school . They may well break lots of other rules that get them into trouble, but not the sexual / contact/ loud and aggressive rules. I am not saying all the boys are angels. They can be rude. They can chat too much. They do play football in areas where they should not. They do race around ….. They can be checked easily.

Generally most of the pupils where I work are biddable. The lads are nice. Most of the girls are also nice . As I said, I will not blame the boys for the behaviour of the girls.

Now we are talking a handful of lairy girls with low self esteem/ poor ability to read social situations

Now, you see, I don't buy into that. That's where you and I differ.

Their parent / carers the same ilk or despairing?

Their parents are generally nice hard working people. I cant say that for all our pupils. Sometimes you can look at the parents and see why their offspring are so bad.

If they do not respond to school rules is exclusion helpful or harmful? If you are seriously concerned for their welfare are they on a CP register already or at least "on the system" ..I assume so?

We are working on the exclusion. Takes time to get enough evidence. They are not on the CP register because they are simply acting out. There are no rules broken in terms of CP and no issues. However, I do know that at least three of the girls want to leave the school. Their parents do not want that. The school I work in has a generally good reputation ( the other option is a hell hole - personally I think these girls deserve to go there)

Which brings me to the wider point. Why do we almost always assume the children must have issues? Must have low esteem? Must be treated with sympathy and kid gloves? We do them no favours for the future with that attitude.

Moreover, its the same kind of policy that claims to treat all as individuals whilst actually introducing rules ( and bans) which affect everyone for the purpose of dealing with a few. So ALL must wear trousers because a few are demanding it? We pander too much to the few and forget the majority too often.

Waves to teetime (well I would if we had a wave emoticon)

I am shocked that anyone in the teaching profession should hold and post such views. I've been retired quite a while now and I know that the ideals I went into teaching with have been swamped with testing, and teaching to the tests, but I still thought there were teachers who held at the heart of their practice the concept of "Every child matters", who wanted children to be educated in an atmosphere where they were recognised as individuals, their talents applauded and their differences and needs met. But perhaps it has enlightened me on some things, I have wondered when their have been cases of suicide or self-harm in the media why the child had nowhere to turn. I understand more now. I only hope this attitude is the exception and that there are still teachers who think education concerns the needs of the whole child and not just stuffing facts for exams down their throats, that there are still teachers who sympathise and care.

But perhaps it has enlightened me on some things, I have wondered when their have been cases of suicide or self-harm in the media why the child had nowhere to turn.

You mean like all those SJW warriors who let the children down in Rochdale, Keighley, Oxford, Telford and many more places because they cared to put the cultures of others above the protection of children?

Where were you all when needed by those young people? Busy caring about the diversity and multi cultural rights of other groups instead weren't you?

…… you brought it up originally, so do not accuse me of binging in something unrelated.

I thought you were currently SJW - ing on the issue of children going hungry in school holidays?

It takes my breath away how some individuals think they have the monopoly on caring and have the arrogance to think that others who hold different views are not capable of caring.

Well I will tell you what I have been doing whilst you have been virtue posturing - I have been helping a young lady complete a piece of work for her PDP folio so that she is up do date and has something she can offer as evidence for continuing her education. That's what I have been doing. Doesn't matter that it is Sunday. I care.

I'm really horrified by this thread, to see how far things have deteriorated since I left in the '90s.
What about school as a place for education? I don't know how you teachers cope now.
Maybe we should go back to school leaving age at 14.
But then these poor girls would go 'on the game' to earn a living.

abbey - congratulations. You've managed to silence me. I'm too cross to respond to your bigoted, smug and self satisfied comments. wasting energy of you - nope.

abbeysomehow you mistakenly divide girls into 'bad girls' and 'young ladies'. Actually they are probably much the same, but some manage to adjust their behaviour to suit the place they are in and some don't. You might be surprised to see some of the 'young ladies' who obey the school rules on a night out, where many of them will be quite capable of behaving like the ladettes you despise. You might consider is this a desirable trait or duplicity?
As for the boys perhaps they need to know that the girls they will meet who may behave in what might be described as promiscous ways are not in fact 'asking for it' but must always be asked and must always consent to any activity. And perhaps they should be warned (as girls once were) not to be alone with a girl they don't trust. In other words that it is their responsibility to keep themselves safe and not the girl's
As for the SJW accusation. It's not worth replying to, my activities and my commitment are known to those who matter and you really don't.

SJW is an odd buzzword for an older lady and experienced teacher to have picked up.

I work with lots of young people muffinthemoo However, it begs the question, how "old" do you have to be to be old? I wouldnt go guessing about me. I am most likely, older than you think ( although not 66 yet - that is retirement age as designated by the state pension)

I really do not see why my being an experienced teacher prohibits me from having picked up such a word. Surely an experienced teacher would be amongst the first to be on top of such buzz words? Coming into contact with younger people, would it not be logical that I am exposed to it?

Why have I silenced you Iam64? You are entitled to an opinion and unlike some here, I am more that open to allowing you to have that opinion, whether or not I agree with it. That is more than can be said for others here, who would try to silence me because I am aborhorent, biggoted ( why always roll out the b word - what next the r word and then the h word?) I dispair.

But I enjoyed your more rounded contributions. I am more than willing to hear what you think. It probably wont change my views ( anymore than I will change yours). But listening to each other is healthy. Its unhealthy when one person is so upset ( at the challenge?) that they feel they need to silence the other.

Neither do I mind my views being challenged. However, trying to make it lok as if I am some sort of seven eyed monster who should not be allowed to teach because I am not "indoctrinated" in the ways of teacher socialist think ( as some are suggesting) is actually quite offensive.

Why should teachers all have to conform to group think? Are teachers not intelligent enough or educated enough to form their own opinions? Is that what you ( or others) think?

Trisher, for an ex teacher, I cannot believe how you take one phrase and then turn it into a set of ideas which have not been expressed, are not immediate conclusions from what has been said , and further then launch a tirade against the person who holds the biews as some sort of vile ignoramous who needs "educating" about something- as if I dont know?

I am not naive ( I think you may be though in some areas). I am fully aware how people in general, not just the young, change their behaviour to suit the occassion.

Part of my job as a teacher , in fact, is to teach those children who do not understand about needing to modify their behaviour according to circumstance, how to do that. It is a necessary social skill for anyone who hopes to have any kind of job ( I dont mean professional occupation necessarily either) and to generally be able to function in society. That is what education is about.

By and large society is not forgiving, friendly or generally flexible. There are rules in most, if not all work places
(including the school I work in which has a code of dress and behaviour for staff as well as pupils). You do not go onto a building site without a hard hat and boots, it is against the rules as well as a health and safety hazard and a disruption to others. You do not work as a receptionist unless you can dress nicely and smile and speak appropriately - you would not use course language or behaviour there. School is the place where you are educated in that. Thats part of my job.

I think sometimes there are people who are too willing to be flexible and try to accommodate young peoples behaviour. They try to explain and understand it at the expense of ensuring those young people understand that their behaviour has consequencies , many of which they do not foresee. You do them no favours in accepting them unconditionally. You do them ( nor yourself) any favours by not being able to discern behaviour that is appropriate in whatever situaltion and what is not. You do no one any favours in thinking that you shouldnt have standards against which you measure behaviour. I can understand just as well as you. The difference is I will not condone ladette behaviour. Its that simple.

Now, take an even deeper breath and let me reveal that for all my years of teaching, I am a Head of department and recently I have been made a Head of year too. So someone must like the way I deal with situations, even if you do not. I dont hide my views particularly.

I am waiting for the " I can possibly believe...... "

I noticed Trisher you are getting a harder time from some of the members of gransnet on the hungry children thread. I guess that is why you have come back to be abhored by me is it?

sorry about the predictive text "corrections" in the above.

Just to say I know I started this thread but while I have been away for a few days things have got a bit heated so I'm going to leave you to it. Best wishes.

It does seem to have moved from skirts v trousers and prescription v proscription in schoolwear to the demolition of personalities. Not interesting any more, just charcter demolition.

Naughty, naughty abbey cross thread references. Not allowed on GN. Should I report you? CBA

trisher ????

abbey I consider everyone 50 and up ‘older’. It’s not pejorative.

Unless your class is stuffed full of alt right keyboard warriors, yes, I do consider it odd that you picked up the phrase SJW there.

Particularly since young folks no longer use the term ‘ladette’ commonly, and haven’t since I myself was ‘young folks’.

Your school must be an interesting place.