Schools banning skirts.

GrannyGravy13, I agree with you that is a main difference. When you are paying for the education it means that you want value for money and your kids to benefit from the exorbitant fees. Children are also taught to value their education, encouraged to have ambition and obey the rules or use more adult tactics to change them. The teachers are no better than the ones in the State Education System, they just have more time because they are not dealing with the sorts of behaviour a mixed bag gives you. Their hands aren't tied either when the school says enough is enough so you can't stay here.
I'm all for equality, have no problem with LGBT rights but do wonder if we keep moving the goalposts to avoid bad behaviour (ie up skirting) we teach our young people nothing part from avoidance. Surely we need to teach them that rules are there to adhere to, to campaign for change against unfairness and tolerance to those who are different.

Icanhandthemback totally agree with you, we should not be moving the goalposts to avoid bad behaviour. We should as parents, grandparents and educators teach our young that bad behaviour and intolerance of those who are different is totally unacceptable.

My very wise Gran always said 'treat others as you would like to be treated yourself' and 'if you cannot say anything nice, do not say anything at all'

pinkjj27, it sounds like the teacher was confused too.
Children should be able to dress as they like, without having to 'identify' as anything.

I am not being facetious, but should shorts become the way fotwards for a school uniform , after all they are all ready gender wearable / usable/ suitable & acceptable.

Brideit my lovely daughter refused to wear trousers of any kind for years ..including shorts.She loved dresses and skirts and was very happy in her school pinafores or summer dress .Why should she and others like her be forced to wear something they dont want to because of bad behaviour or adults overreacting about whats PC.

Ohh I agree no one should be forced to. I guess though when we (I) were young we wore what are parents gave us to wear etc. Ohh how I hated a horrible red coat(I beleive I was 12) but I did rebel at 14, & got away with mini skirts which I hitched up further once clear of the house?

I’m sorry but I could pick all sorts of holes in your description of the ‘school fate’ incident pink

Had to skim back to the school “fate (worse than death)” incident Old Meg and I am more than a little too.
There is some very confused thinking going on in some areas and I do wonder about conflating the “upskirting” and gender neutrality issues. The former is simply unacceptable behaviour and an example of sexual harassment, the latter hinges on tolerance of the individual and cannot be addressed by blanket bans on forms of dress.

Good word ‘conflating’

Far North wrote:

Children should be able to dress as they like, without having to 'identify' as anything.

Children need to be socialised. Being socialised means they learn to identify with some form of behaviour, normally behaviour that their parents or teachers promote.

It would be positively unkind to allow your young daughter to wear clothing that was going to be to her disadvantage. Children have to learn the skill of getting on with others. Only a strong adult or adolescent can safely be eccentric in dress.

We had to wear horrible pleated shorts!

Alexa, why do you especially mention a young daughter being put at a disadvantage by her clothing? It is already acceptable, in general life if not always in schools, for girls to wear either trousers or skirts.
A young son is more likely to be at a disadvantage, if he wants to wear a skirt. If he does want that, however, why shouldn't he do that without being told he is 'in the wrong body' and needs to make drastic physical changes?

pinkjj27, in your story you say that the child in the pink dress said "I am a boy". So he was 'identifying' as a boy in a dress.

n 80s I fought for my DD to be allowed to wear trousers to school as it was not on the girls uniform list. All uniforms are ' dictatorial' so adding/ removing items is not a surprise. If schools could be quite brave they would just have a uniform.list and not separate ones for boys/ girls. Very brave schools would just have a dress code: smart casual: no logos or slogans.

Hear, hear, PECS.

I often wonder how other countries, that don't have school uniform, don't just go to the dogs.

Makes you wonder how university students ever learn anything, being allowed to wear what the hell they like.

?

Another one here supporting the comments made in PECS post. Schools could stop having a list of uniform for boys and girls and simply have one list. The really brave thing would be to stop insisting on uniform. Other countries manage perfectly well with children wearing 'clothes' for school.

Far North my remarks go for sons too. My sons were normal for their peer group, normally rebellious in trendy ways, and I have photos that illustrate this. If my sons had wanted to wear dresses to school they would have damaged their reputations with their peers, let alone the school authorities.
I agree with you that nobody should be told that they are the wrong gender. I believe that choice of gender is or should be a personal choice. I also believe that invasive surgery or medication should not be expected of gender changers.
Dress codes are for indicating who people are. This goes for skirts for school uniforms. If skirts were sexually modest then all genders should be allowed to wear skirts to school. I simply don't think that skirts are as modest as trousers.

I say this as a Scot who wore a kilt as school uniform at a girls' school. However when I was at school in the 1940s most children and adults were compliant towards authority, and kilts are genuinely unisex garments.

PS kilts are not as modest as trousers. Once in a compartment train I sat opposite a funny man in a kilt who spread his legs wide and displayed his organs, probably deliberately as I still can recall his aggressive face .

Just musing on this uniform question.What are the GN thoughts on ties? Girls/ boys, yes no? Are they male attire girls have been forced to wear or simply a smart addition to a uniform?

Alexa I dispute your allegation If my sons had wanted to wear dresses to school they would have damaged their reputations with their peers
As I have already said one of my DSs wore a skirt (kindly provided by one of the girls) to go into school one day. (He changed in the yard and stuck the trousers he left home in in his bag). I don't think wearng the skirt damaged his relations with his peers -quite the reverse. The authorities were a different matter and behaved in a very reactionary manner. They didn't seem to appreciate the joke or the irony that there were girls in trousers in the class. I sometimes wonder what they would do today, much more difficult to over-react.

My friends grandchild is a boy. He is fine boned and has very lovely long hair and wears a stretchy hair and to keep it off his face. In jeans or shorts & tee shirt he is often taken for a girl. He very clearly explains that he is a boy with long hair," I don't mind you thinking I am a girl. They are nice too. But I am just a boy with long hair"

What a lovely child.

I read the comment that "if a boy did choose to wear a skirt to school, he'd likely be ill treated by his peers." I agree that "that fits with up skirting in the list of totally unacceptable behaviour." However, I don't think "Homophobic, trans bullying should be top of our list to challenge." Schools are doing a lot to help children understand sexuality issues, but I think all sorts of bullying need attention. It's a difficult one but I don't want to see special support/programs being set up for sufferers from homophobic, trans bullying whilst those children who bully and are bullied without being part of a specified group are left to cope. (I see a lot of them who we help as best we can with the shortage of funding, so any further deserving groups would stretch the resources even more thinly. ) Acknowledging that there are even more vulnerable groups is a good idea. Anyone think there's a chance we'll get extra funding for resources, training and support?

adaunas with funding for schools being in effect cut, class numbers rising and teacher numbers being reduced I wouldn't hold your breath!

I wear a skirt quite a lot - well always now, because skirts hide a multitude of fat issues as well as being more comfortable around my thunder thighs ( I am only a size 1 4 by the way and 5ft 7 ins, but flabby and middle aged now). At school I wore a skirt up to my behind on occasions but was always careful to ensure next weeks washing didn't show. I learned to sit properly and to bend when needed so that I didn't show anything. It was called being decent.

I have worn trousers. They are hot in this current weather … but there is a point being missed here.

Whatever you put on a uniform list the pupils will try to break it. Trousers will be come tight leggings with low tops showing all they can. Skirts are short , shorts are even shorter ( showing bottom cheeks is the order of the day right now).

But the real problem is that some young women/girls are deliberately using short skirts and over sexualised behaviour. They are not innocents. They know exactly what they are doing and how flaunting their open legs ( with or without shorts) is sexualised behaviour - then of course someone get on a high horse when the issue is mentioned.

I have direct experience of this . I have seen the girls doing this. They get shirty if you tell them to behave more appropriately and can give you all the gab about "equal rights and feminism" . But its bullocks. What they are doing is being deliberately sexual and provocative. Its rebellion at best, more likely though in my opinion , a sad case of needing to validate themselves in some way and the only way they know is dressing like a Miley Cirus on weed. Therein it is a product of our society as well

If you ban skirts and dresses, they will do the same with shorts or trousers or anything else.

The trans gender issue is a deflection.

abbey, where are all these deliberately sexually provocative girls, spouting 'equal rights and feminism' bullocks? I confess to never having met a feminist of any age who deliberately wears short skirts that show their genitals and then get on the high horse when it's mentioned.

How can the trans gender issue be a 'deflection'. I don't understand the connection.