Schools banning skirts.

Actually abbey the sexualisation of girls commences much before the age of 14, and it has absolutely nothing to do with PSHE and sex education. It is a product of the culture we live in. You can condemn that or not as you choose, but what is absolutely certain is that it is not the fault of the girls who are the product of that culture. There is such a thing as teacher baiting. We were actually quite good at it when I was at school, and children still are. They can pick your sensitive points so easily and will push your buttons. You may not think you should be concerned with the lives of your pupils but many of your colleagues disagree, and it is those teachers who will connect with the girls you are castigating. In the meantime the girls will continue to behave badly and enjoy your discomfort. You may think your personal views don't affect your teaching but they certainly do. In recognising our own prejudices and accepting them we are half way towards becoming better at the job. It doesn't mean condoning the behaviour. It does mean accepting that the girls are as much victims as any one else, and asking for better standards without labelling them as bad people.

I must have imagined all those references in Jane Austen novels to her heroines putting on their most flattering frocks when their favoured gentlemen called around.

You make a good point muffinthemoo ( your name makes a point about our society too) . The difference between those women in Jane Austin novels and now is that there were very strong conventions on behaviour. In a world where there are no conventions and no rules, the situation is frighteningly and overwhelmingly confusing I think.

It's like a mischievous toddler, if you ignore what they're doing (assuming it's nor dangerous!) they go off and do something else

I am afraid they don't. You are correct, attention is what they want, but the attention seeking isn't as simple as you think. . Ignore them and they do not get bored. It doesn't go away. It escalates , and becomes increasingly disruptive and embarrassing all round.
They are not toddlers. They are young people trying to be adults in a complex world which is sending them loads of mixed messages. . They want to fit in . they want to prove they are bigger than they are, they want people to see them as grown up, but they are not grown up and they do not know how to be grown up - and above that, unfortunately , we as a society are not teaching them , or modelling for them what it is to be adults.

A teacher's job is to recognise those difficulties and work to overcome them

Actually it is not. It is my job, if I suspect any abuse or if I receive a disclosure to pass that on to our safeguarding officer. I am trained to have some idea what to look for. That is the breadth of my remit as a teacher ( and it is very clear).

Too many people like you think teachers have to be social workers, health workers, counsellors, psychiatrists and even parent substitutes at times. Teachers are none of those and nor should they be.

Why must early sexualisation be the result of PSHE lessons?

I am not saying it is. It so happens that the bulk of explicit sex education takes place at this age and it may be coincidence that the behaviours seem to start in this age group ( around 14) but it might have something to do with the PHSE delivery. It was a suggestion.

Young girls ( and boys) in this age group are at a stage of development psychologically where they look around to gauge their own self-worth and judge it by what it perceives other people think of them. They pick up on the adult behaviour around and emulate it. Of course they are immature and get it wrong. But in a society where anything goes, many minority ideas and issues are given priority it is easy for them to make mistakes and difficult to correct those mistakes. Its compounded by the fact that a proportion of society never manages to move beyond this stage of validation and develop their own integrity.

I believe it is a wider social problem - and one that in some form or another has been with us as long as girls have been girls and fashion conscious - its just that sexuality is all around now, the rules that once told us what was acceptable and decent are no longer there. Sexuality is exploited by the media as well as by those who have different cultural values. When I was young, that was not the case.

That reveals a little of your personal attitude I think. Such an attitude is best kept away from children and the classroom.

Its funny but when someone doesn't agree with what another says , they can never find it in them to show sufficient tolerance to allow the difference of opinion but instead always have to resort to a phrase such as this.

The "you are not fit " etc. …. oh dear. What is there to say?

I am in a classroom. I am still teaching. That cannot be changed by your view of me. I do my job well. That's all I have to do. We cannot all share your views- and maybe that is a good thing.

I hope the checks were more thorough than those in Rochdale

I was going to ignore this but , since you insist on raising it, I will address it. The checks in Rochdale, Keighley , Telford, Oxford and a number of other places where sexual grooming by gangs has been identified as having taken place were in fact quite complete. The situation was known to social workers, health workers and police but they failed to act. There is an elephant in the room with this, but you wont address it, you would rather play the youngsters as victims of any man/boy card.

Personally, I abhor that. I will not say more on the point and I am not going to conflate the issue with the one being discussed here.

Surely the issue comes down to people's reactions to what these girls are wearing, rather than the clothes. If they get no reaction from anyone it soon becomes boring. I'm sure they love the attention they currently get for pushing the boundaries,

It's like a mischievous toddler, if you ignore what they're doing (assuming it's nor dangerous!) they go off and do something else.

abbey
However, where I work I am absolutely certain that there are no issues of the behaviour being a result of abuse. That was the first thing raised and checked
I hope the checks were more thorough than those in Rochdale.
I don't think the cause of the sexualisation is all that relevant anyway. It is your absolute and utter lack of understanding of these girls and your antipathy towards them that I find repugnant. However they behave, they are children, they will make poor life choices, they will challenge authority, they will be difficult. A teacher's job is to recognise those difficulties and work to overcome them. Why must early sexualisation be the result of PSHE lessons? That reveals a little of your personal attitude I think. Such an attitude is best kept away from children and the classroom.

I've never felt comfortable in trousers especially when I was a youngster.

Know it sounds mad but i feel more exposed especially at the time of month. I feel self conscious as trousers outline my figure wheras a skirt (or dress) feels like it covers me loosely and not outlining my figure. So i woukd hate having skirts banned. But lets just ban how women dress altogether after all, hasn't it always been women who have had to adjust and not men (& others) who have had to respect women!!!!??

Yes, of course girls dressing to appear attractive to males is a brand new invention in the UK that appeared along with Instagram.

I must have imagined all those references in Jane Austen novels to her heroines putting on their most flattering frocks when their favoured gentlemen called around.

Its strange that in countries where schools generally don't have uniforms - US, France etc the kid all seem to wear the same "uniform" of jeans and sweatshirts. I agree that trousers can be made just as revealing - if not more so than skirts. One school I worked in some girls wore leggings where the camel toe effect was evident. yuk.

My issue is the gradual slippery slope of not being able to 'Self Identify' by anybody to conform to gender neutrality, not everybody wishes to be general neutral so where do they stand?

This is why I suggested the trans gender and identity issue is a deflection. Trousers are not gender neutral.

By the way if your area is so poor I would be seriously worried about the sexualised young girls and systematic abuse. But if you are satisfied that someone is dealing with the safeguarding all you are left with is the unsuitable behaviour, which, if there is any sort of question about the girls' experiences, would have at least warranted a little sympathy, I would have thought

I cannot speak for the school which is sorting out its issue with micro mini skirts by banning them altogether. However, where I work I am absolutely certain that there are no issues of the behaviour being a result of abuse. That was the first thing raised and checked.

Hence we are left with social mores as an explanation. The behaviour concerned seems to be repeated far and wide in many schools too according to the articles I have read ( union posts, education magazines etc.).

You cannot waive it all away with abuse and grooming claims - not unless you want to make the far sweeping claim that society itself is fostering this abuse with its lack of morality and its early sexualisation of children through the education processes in PHSE?

It is still a sad situation that so many girls feel the only way they can validate themselves is by emulating WAGS and pop stars who sell their sexuality for a living.

Question

If skirts are being banned to serve the purpose of individuals being allowed to ' Self Identify' with their sexuality why can't girls 'Self Identify' as being female and wear skirts.

I hold no particular feelings one way or the other as to the wearing of school uniform other than I believe a school has a right to expect it's pupils and parents to abide there rules.

My issue is the gradual slippery slope of not being able to 'Self Identify' by anybody to conform to gender neutrality, not everybody wishes to be general neutral so where do they stand?

If a boy wants to wear a skirt or a girl wants to wear trousers let them but why must everybody loose their rights for others to gain theirs?

I don't think I need to answer your question trisher, because if you read appropriately, you would see I already have answered you.

The first school I worked in was one in a "triple action zone" - that is it had poverty in social, economic and health matters. Indeed the school was considered to be in the poorest borough in the country.

I have worked in a very upmarket private school also and a middle of the road comprehensive.

No, not all in the same part of the country. But don't let any of that stop you being prejudiced against me.

I think it was a positive move for girls to be allowed to wear trousers for school. Why can't the uniform be trousers or skirt? Those girls who wish to wear trousers may do so and those who wish to wear a skirt would be free to do so too.

In most of the schools I have worked in the option was skirt or trousers for girls ( and in the summer shorts). However, right now the issue is with girls wearing very short micro mini skirts and behaving badly whilst doing so. This is despite or in spite of the school rules.

Previously girls have been an issue ( sorry it has been girls and only girls) wearing trousers - they have worn them skinny tight, low around the midriff and revealing a significant amount of flesh - despite the school rules stating what trousers should be worn.

Girls where I work are choosing to wear skirts, not trousers. I understand that the ban ( which is the subject of this thread) is that girls will not be given any choice but they will be forced into wearing g trousers. I am guessing that the school concerned think they can control trouser tightness more easily than skirt length.

Best of luck because the girls will find the tightest legging style trousers they can squeeze into just as they have done in other places where trousers ( girls) have been an issue.

By the way if your area is so poor I would be seriously worried about the sexualised young girls and systematic abuse. But if you are satisfied that someone is dealing with the safeguarding all you are left with is the unsuitable behaviour, which, if there is any sort of question about the girls' experiences, would have at least warranted a little sympathy, I would have thought

We could do "My area is poorer than yours" abbey. I think I would win. Still as you can't answer the argument I think you have lost the debate. Just one question. In 25 years of teaching you have taught in private schools, state schools etc. Can I ask if they are all in the same poor area?

I live in a very poor area of the country. It is just one which seems so far to have been left behind where your social issues are concerned.

As for challenging my views. Why is it my views that have to be challenged? Why not try looking at your own more closely?

Oh according to abbey we do Iam64 we are all out of touch, retired and in fact, past it. Only she sees things as they are. Thanks for your post showing we do know as much if not more about what is happening in society.
I don't often post quotes back to people but abbey you said
One thing that has come up in the school where I work is a petition to the head about the younger girls ( year 9 and 10 - 14/15 year olds) and their behaviour/ the way they wear their uniform. The older boys ( who are becoming young men!) find them embarassing and feel do not want to be in class with these girls because they fear , not their own behaviour but the potential for accusations
Firstly I don't understand why these "older" boys would be in classes with the "younger" girls they are complaining about. Secondly why not take the opportunity to explain to these boys, who are after all tomorrow's young men, exactly how unacceptable it is to blame their responses on girls. How accusations usually have some basis in fact and are rarely completely fabricated. Giving them warnings about their responses might protect them and young women from future difficult situations. You may not think you are excusing the boys and blaming the girls but your every post indicates that you are.

So, sexualised behaviour as observed and diagnosed by abbey makes her wonder what goes on in the children's homes. If so, it may be a 'safeguarding issue'. " but abbey doesn't need to concern herself of temper her unpleasant remarks about young girls because if there are safeguarding issues, she's sure their safeguarding officer will have been informed. Phew, that's ok then, no need for abbey to challenge her judgemental views of young people.
I apologise for being hot under the collar but abbey you may live away from inner cities or poverty stricken Northern mill towns, or even Oxford, where groups of teenage girls (and boys) have been groomed and abused by groups of older men. Its now accepted that for years, these children were said to be making "life style choices" and none of the perpetrators was prosecuted. In fact, the children were judged by teachers, police officers, social workers, health visitors to be no better than they ought to be.
More apologies for being irritated and for going so far off the OP teetime. Not all of us live cloistered lives do we.

When I went to school in the 1960's and 1970's, you weren't allowed to wear trousers. I thought it was a good thing when girls were allowed to wear trousers to school. Come to think of it, when I first started work in an office, women didn't wear their trousers there.

I think it was a positive move for girls to be allowed to wear trousers for school. Why can't the uniform be trousers or skirt? Those girls who wish to wear trousers may do so and those who wish to wear a skirt would be free to do so too.

From a purely personal point of view, I'd prefer to wear a skirt/dress in the Summer because it is cooler but I accept everybody is different.

As for not encountering any trans people, I suppose you see what you want to see. I certainly remember a number of children who, as teenagers, experimented with dress and style that was very androgynous, some of them might have been trans

It may just be that I do not live in a large town or city and that locally these are not issues ( at least not yet). Not everyone everywhere has the diversity of population.

Whilst this matter of clothing and sexualisation seems to be an issue, the truth is I know I am lucky not to live in an area where far more problems exist.

Schools, plural

society in general
Yup. School reflect their societies, not the other way round.

a society where women are openly lauded for their sexual style of dress
Yep again, and teenagers copy what adults do.

As for the girls who are sexualised perhaps a little more sympathy, suggestions of other ways they could challenge their rebellion and a recognition that bad behaviour is possible for both boys and girls, and isn't worse in girls would help

But that is to deny the fact ( at least as it is in my experience in the schools I have worked in) . I get tired of lecturing our nice decent and good kids about behaviour just to save the face and blushes of those who are not so nice.

But then, that seems to be another facet of our media driven society normalising victimhood and sexualising almost everything.