What am I supposed to do?

When you have children you love them unconditionally but sadly I am afraid that often it does not mean that you actually like them and how they turn out. Sometimes you have to be a toughie if you want them to live up to their full potential. It does not seem that your elder son is managing very well at present. It would seem there are no absolutes in his life and he clearly thinks that he has no boundaries and no responsibilities. This is where the parents come in as it is part of their responsibility to put in place the absolutes.

I wonder if you have taken into account his brother's feelings regarding all of this. I fear that you may be storing up problems for the future. When you are no longer here to keep the peace the family left behind may well be totally fractured. Your younger son may well take a very strong position to protect his own little family and your older son may well be left out in the cold. Who knows? You have no idea what will happen and this is why you need to prepare your 'man child' to be self sufficient. You may not know but estrangement is a very unhappy scenario and could be an unintended outcome when the family dynamics are in a mess. Estrangement can happen even when there is only a perceived favouring of one sibling over another but you know that is not the case here.

Clearly you do know that as a mum you actually need to sort all this out. Nobody likes to be a kill joy but there doesn't seem to be much joy for any of you in the situation as it is at present. It needs to change but as you are posting on here then you clearly already know this.

Some people have physical handicaps, and other people accept that they need help and don't generally assume that the disability is voluntary and evidence of fecklessness. Some people have chronic illnesses such as fibromyalgia - they sometimes get shorter shrift because many other people assume they're malingering. Some people have mental health issues. Public opinion now recognises that these are 'real' illnesses, just like physical ones, but many people still seem to be labelled as scroungers. And some people can't cope well with the practical aspects of managing their lives. My elder son, now 37, has a a lot in common with the OP's, and over the years I've been given all the same advice as many people have offered to her. My son is adopted, and was diagnosed with ADHD as a child, but before any specific help was available. It has been painful to watch him continually fall into the same traps because of a neurological inability to check impulsive behaviour. And even more painful to experience again and again the lack of understanding by anyone who does not have at least some personal experience of attempting to deal with this developmental disorder. I'm pleased to say, that although he's been what seems like the world's slowest late developer, our son has gradually taken on board and learnt from the consequences of his actions (we're still working on his apparent inability to remember to put money aside for direct debits BEFORE they're due, but we're getting there. He enjoys his work as an HGV driver, but it's not well paid, and he and his wife have no money for extras, so this is a hard lesson for him to learn, particularly as he's a very generous person (just as he was when he was seven and came home with a bar of Galaxy for me and none of the change I'd asked him to give me). But I know that if we'd given up on him he would never have made it through to where he is now - we have given him a non-judgmental but not uncritical safe haven, just as we would have done to any young person with a disability. So, Chinesecrested, I do understand the need to offload sometimes, even if you aren't really asking for advice, and with you and your family well.

You describe a drunken, disrespectful, self serving parasite.
Like others I strongly suspect that you secretly take pleasure in your son being so dependent on you, though in my opinion he is taking the proverbial.
I doubt very much if you will take any advice offered by others in the same situation.

Klondykate, like you I find many posters on here harsh with their views and quick to condemn, so if you manage to find a site which would be more suited to my genteel disposition, please let me know.

Oh and has others have said your in denial about him having an alcohol problem. Have a look at this website link. It's a support network for those who have someone around there lives where drink is an issue. Step off the merry go round of denial and check it out please

www.al-anonuk.org.uk/

Your enabling him to stay stuck. He isn't going to change when you allow him to stay in your home and behave like this. I have been there and done it. I had to learn the hard way the only person you can change is you. The itinerary is yours. We can't change anyone. Only ourselves. He won't like it and will go for all the buttons he can push if you decide it's time to tell him to get his own place, give him a deadline etc. He is used to you giving in to him. Maybe you need to get some impute for you to help you with this

My parents were dismissive of my brother’s drink problem and when his wife left him for it, they just didn’t believe it. He had lots of friends and little money, found responsibility difficult and had such loving parents who did everything for him, including burying him just before his 40th birthday. All those lovely friends attended his funeral but that is little consolation now. I think tough love with support might have been a better route. Sometimes good parenting is about taking the tougher path rather than the one with least resistance. Maybe you could do with some assertiveness courses so you can help him? What does your other child think; often siblings are much better at seeing problems than parents.

So, ChineseCrested, if I understand your post correctly...

a, Your son smokes in the house against house rules. Response: You look the other way to avoid a
confrontation!

b. He has no money to go to work because he drinks too much
Response: You don't think it's a serious problem),

c. You let him borrow your money knowing you will never get it back
Response: Saying NO to him makes you feel guilty so you lend him the money anyway.

*d. He squanders his paycheck on beer but keeps the £20 fuel money you 'lent' him.
Response: He decides not to go to work and you don't say anything?

e. He lies to his employer by calling in sick.
No reponse. (So, I'm guessing you're OK with that too)

What could possibly go wrong here?

He doesn't pay rent because he has no spare money, rent isn't what you do with spare money, beer is what you spend money on after everything else has been paid. Rent food diesel etc. I'm sorry to say this but you are being a ridiculous person and a terrible mother, not only allowing this to happen buy actively encouraging it. He is showing you no respect by smoking at home when you have told him not to and keeping (lending him money) that is not paid back is not lending it's giving it's also called enabling. You have to take charge of this situation now.'you are after all the parent

Chinesecrested "smokes in the house (against house rules, although I find myself turning a blind eye, not being one for confrontation". A minor point here, I trust your insurance doesn't have a non-smoking clause - would be terrible if your insurance was invalidated in the case of fire. I see that other posters covered any other points that I would have made.

does your OH like having a blokey mate around? Our son came out of a three year relationship ( she was sleeping with someone else) and moved home..with a baby girl in tow .They stayed for 8 years and that baby girl is now 9 and still lives here part of the week.She could stay at her dads but she thinks of this as home and until she's happy to be full time with dad and his new partneer her home it will be .My OH really missed him when he left ,they would sit up until silly oclock watching motor racing and talking .He still visits ,drops in most days on his way home but his dad still misses him more than a year down the line.If your OH is happy for him to be there and apart from a few niggles you are too ,I'd ignore a lot of the throw him out and make him grow up stuff on here.We all live our lives differently .You must do what feels right for you ...even if it means a 40 something flatmate .

Was his drinking a factor in the end of his marriage?

I know you say he does not have a serious problem, but he is now forty. The liver's capacity to heal itself declines with age. Please have a long think about whether his lifestyle is enabling him to drink too often and too much. The last thing he needs is a health problem.

GrandmaMoira of course no-one finds it easy to 'kick out' their children - but we're talking about a 40-year-old man here! If he can't stand on his own 2 feet now, when will he ever be able to?

I think some of the posters are a bit harsh. It is very difficult to kick out your children and, because it's home, some do feel they can do what they want and ignore Mum's rules.
I had 2 DS at home until last year, one was a worker but the other a bit like yours. Eventually, I just had enough and told him to go. He was sofa surfing for some time but has now got a flat and seems to be settled. The worker also left to set up home with his girlfriend and it's great having my house to myself.
Could you pay a deposit on a room to get him out? If he can't pay the rent, he will have to deal with the consequences.

Reading your first post and then your subsequent replies it seems this situation has been ongoing for a long time. Has rented on his own, stayed with friends, on and off with his wife, and back again to you. You can"t force change in other people but you and your partner can change the way you deal with this situation. You will have to be confrontational if you want changes. This is your house and you are entitled to have certain rules and expect them to be followed. He is completely disrespecting your wishes by smoking indoors! Tell him to smoke outside ...or perhaps he could quit ..lots of help to stop nowadays. Under this Jack the Lad" image I think there is an unhappy man, possible because of his marriage break up and all the associated problems this must have brought. However you are not doing him any favours letting him carry on in this way. There has to be some ground rules or nothing will change. Are any of his friends single? Any chance of him renting with any of them and sharing costs. I hope you can come to some sort of solution before too long.

Yes mgtann71 I am very sorry for your loss. We are all flawed human beings. I hope in time you can have happy memories of your DD and forgive her her faults. Take care of yourself.

mgtanne71 - very sorry to hear of your loss, sad no matter what the circumstances. Perhaps a lot of grief and a little, in the time to come, relief? ?

He sounds just like my ex, a lovely guy but really married to the pub. Ex is now in his 60's as am I, & our marriage was 36yrs ago and ended as soon as I grew up and looked after our child & I realised he wasn't going to change. Ex now has 2 kids, his 2nd wife died, but he is still always at the pub and the kids were bought up in this atmosphere. I would do everything to get him a flat, see him right in it, make it clear the 'loans' end but he's welcome for dinner & let him sort himself out. Otherwise if you're ever not around he'd be stuck. He probably won't like it, but it should be the making of him and reassuring for you, cos he'll learn to cope alone.

My children are able to come any time they want and have had to move back with their families. Whilst we have been in a position to finance them a bit, we have always asked for rent whilst they stay. We don’t spend it, we put it by for them so they can afford the deposit on independent living, car replacement, etc. I am sure you mean to be kind but if you love your son and want the best for him, you do need to change your support from financial to assisting him to stand on his own 2 feet. I suspect that his alcohol consumption anaesthetises his problems but is also a major source of them. He really needs you to say ‘no more’ and then get him the help he needs to take back control of his life. Any less will be doing him a disservice. Good luck.

nananina I don’t think anyone has criticised chinesecrested for letting her son live at home originally! I too have had an adult DD live with me for a while when she needed help and would do the same for the other 2. The problem here is that he will not learn any self sufficiency and it’s not doing him any favours! What will happen to him when his mum is no longer around to bail him out? It’s not a kindness to enable someone to shirk the normal care for themselves that we all as adults have to face. He needs help to move out and in to his own place, I accept rents are high and he might have to cut his cloth eg move into a shared house, lots of people do, or take a smaller studio flat, and if he
Isn’t paying rent to the OP he should be able to save for that deposit you mentioned! especially if he doesn’t blow it on booze etc

Ever heard the phrase "positive reinforcement of a negative behaviour pattern?"... because that's exactly what you're doing here, and until you shut up shop he's unlikely to either grow up or to adopt a more responsible attitude to life. Do you take any money from the young Prince for food and lodging? From what you've said, I guess not... and if that's the case more fool you. It sounds to me that he considers that most of the money that he earns is "beer coupons", and can't even save some cash with which to fuel his van. Do you "lend" him money to pay his car insurance too?... Sorry, but you are seriously being taken advantage of here, and you only have yourself to blame. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but if you really want him to grow up, stop enabling his childlike behaviour...

I've been in a similar position, Finally DH and I realised we were not doing our 40 year old son any favours by letting him live practically rent-free, so we told him he would either need to move out or start paying rent, food and something towards our electricity and water bills. He left in a huff, but pulled himself together and is not fully self-supporting.

Frankly, I don't think you are being fair to your other son unless you are keeping careful track of the money you "lend" your son who is living with you and have stated in your will that these amounts are to be deducted from his inheritance.

Yes, our children are our children however old they are, but it is not your problem that a 40 year old cannot or does not support himself.

Well I'm going to swim against the tide OP. I do accept what others are saying but it's so easy to tap away in the comfort of your own home. I'm not in the position of having a 40 year old living at home, but I know that if any of my sons wanted to come home I would agree in a heartbeat. Parenting is a life sentence and I think most of us worry about our kids whether they are 5 or 50 - the nature of the worries are different of course but the intensity isn't.

Thinking of the son getting his own place, that's not easy in this day and age. He would have to get a private rented place - I don't know where you live (hope it's not London) but the rents these landlords are allowed to charge is astronomical, and rents are high all over the country but particularly in London. He would need to pay a substantial deposit (usually 4 weeks rent) and often a further sum that is refunded at the end of the tenancy if the place has been kept well. Rents can be well in excess of £1000 per month for something reasonable and I think the cheapest he would get would be £500.

It doesn't sound like the son is going to be able to go don this route if he can't afford the diesel for his van because he spent too much on beer! SO I don't know OP - it's a tricky one. You are of course as everyone says enabling him to live like a feckless teenager but that's the sort of mom you are. My sister and bil also have a 40 ish man living with them. Their other 3 adult children have all done well, made their way in the world but not the last one who came many years after the others. He does work and cooks and does his own washing and ironing. He never borrows money but I have a suspicion that he doesn't pay any rent. My sister waits on him and when he comes hone from work sh jumps up to make him a coffee. They don't have much money and he always has the gas fire turned up very high and I doubt he pays towards bills but I doubt it. However I think he may have AS as he is rather "unusual" - has no friends but is quite personable in some ways. No idea what will happen to him when my sister and bil die, both just 80 but in good health.

Sorry OP this isn't any help I know - what will be will be!

P.S. I think 'vile' is rather harsh too - and if you read many of the strings on Gransnet you will see that there are lots of people with different problems indicating that none of us are perfect.

klondykekate you do seem to be quite harsh with all the posters here. There is not a lot of point in commenting that this must be lovely for them all, what a good and positive arrangement, and how well the OP's son will flourish in this kind of environment and set up when it is so clearly destructive for the '40 year old child' and a worrying scenario for his mother. it seems that's why she is asking! I really don't think she was letting off steam in order to have her current living arrangements praised and vindicated - her opening sentence was 'I don't know if anyone can help'. We are all trying!

klondykekate I don’t think anyone here has meant to be unsympathetic but it is frustrating to hear this poor woman’s situation, she asked what could be done and people have given their honest opinions and I would add most of these were also expressing concern for the sons long term out come if this is not sorted out.