Gender critical trans woman

I suggested a family member bought an item from John Lewis and they said " we no longer shop there because of their policy on gender free clothing ".
I do not want to take GC into toilet facilities that are shared nor do I want to use them myself.

ygg - have you read up on the radical transactivists? There's plenty more where DM came from. There's a world of difference between someone who genuinely transitions and the ones who are driving the self-identification changes.

I don't think we're going to be genderless Luckylegs, I filled in a NT volunteer questionnaire early this weeks and there was a bit on gender orientation. I think there were at least six options and heterosexual was well down the list. When I was young there were only two sexes. Life was so much simpler then. I really don't care what a person's sexual orientation is or what bits they've got, (and I don't share changing rooms with strangers). I just want to know if they want to be called he or she.

It's all gone bonkers. I don't want to share changing rooms or loos with males.
Disgusted with John Lewis for having gender free clothing. I won't be getting any of it. Whoever thought tastes a good idea has lostvtgecpkotl think we are all capable of choosing what we want to buy.
Are we all eventually going to be one big gender less sex, how boring.

Danielle Muscato is a very bad example to choose. The man is a troll. Real trans people will at least be trying to live in the way they feel they should.

Well said Azie09. Excellent post.

Nelliemoser thank you, no worries. This is the first chance I've had to return to this topic and I am really pleased to see it being taken up as a serious debate. I spent about an hour trying to understand the subject and I became more worried by the moment.

It's a long time since I've done any academic work and apologies if what I wrote came over as that. But relating to that, if you watch the video on the Gendered Intelligence page that I linked to, the Tedtalk man is presenting the subject in exactly those terms, buttressing his argument by mentioning Plato and other significant historical/philosophical figures to suggest that 'gender fluidity' (what a term!) is somehow the norm and any of us who think differently are backward and even bigoted.

If you look at the organisation Gendered Intelligence you will see that they are nothing more than a bunch of people who have set themselves up to lobby and yet they have somehow gained a government ear and are being consulted on the issue of transitioning. I don't know if anyone has looked at the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) website and their information pack for schools but yet again, here we have a government body which is already stressing that gender fluidity is the norm. This could mean that a girl who objected to a boy who claimed to be transitioning coming into her school toilets, because she was upset or frightened, could/would be accused of a hate crime. Seriously, here is the link again: www.cps.gov.uk/publications/docs/cps_lgbt_teacher_pack.pdf

I apologise for being inarticulate. maryeliza has done a great job of being clear on this important issue. Something is happening under our noses that I think is just going to corrupt our children. And paddyann, just because you know two young people who are taking a big step that looks all squeaky clean, that doesn't mean that the situation is ok for everyone, everywhere. You say how good it is that they can be 'normal'. Well what does that mean? Does it mean that others who are happy with their gender but uncomfortable with boys who appear to be girls are abnormal? I think it's normal for young people to experiment with their identity and these days there is more freedom than ever to do that in all sorts of ways but it's for adults to protect young people from things going too far not aid them to live a medically constructed alternative life which they may one day come to regret.

Intact means working genitalia -the point some of us are trying to make on here is that the radical transwomen who want self identification of gender have NO intention of transitioning in the sense of hormonal treatment, surgery etc. Look at Danielle M - note his beard and he posts about his penis. Penises one way or another per se don't bother me - in the right situation I rather like them but I do want to be able to choose in other situations not to be in the presence of an intact man if that is my choice without being accused of discrimination

Azie09
I was very rather terse about your initial post and I now apologise for that.

Initially none of the issues presented were at all clear to me with no clues about which "sides" were claiming what

GrumpyOldBat Has now made this situatio much clearer to me.

To save you using the link.

I like Radicalnan's post, too. Plenty of common sense there, imo. In particular, the sentiment, 'There is a school of thought, that transitioning is more of a mental health issue than a physical one....'

define 'intact'. I assume here we are talking about people who have already begun the process with hormone treatment, and if they look like women are quite a way along.
Or is it the existence of a bit of external flesh that bothers you?

Here are some other scenarios - women who had fled domestic violence and are in a woman's refuge. A self identifying intact man fights for the right and wins it to also live in the refuge

Vulnerable women prisoners have sex with a self identifying intact female prisoner

A self identifying intact female prisoner, 6ft tall, guilty of a violent murder wins the right to be placed in a women's prison

Is all that fine? Maybe you're lucky enough not to have any female you care about need a refuge or go to prison. But some of us think that women should able to be in biological women only spaces and safe from male violence.

I know that sometimes you can't see a female doctor but when I've had a non urgent female problem, I've booked with a biological female doctor and have felt much better discussing eg flooding and painful periods - I should have that right without being accused of discrimination

I have no problem with anybody who wants to, has or is transitioning. I don't mind them using the same toilets as me, doing my smear test, using a cubicle in a changing room next to me or anything else provided they maintain the bounds of decency (and hygiene) that is acceptable between different or the same genders. However, I am deeply troubled with children receiving medication to become a different gender and I think gender neutrality is the way forward for children. Let them just be what they want, dress how they wish and promote inclusiveness for all. If when they are older, they wish to seek medical transition then that is a different matter. Children do not have the emotional maturity to make such decisions and parents cannot be relied on to make such a decision. I have a family member who doesn't just allow her boy to dress in a girl's attire but promotes it whole heartedly with gusto. The fact that she is a mother of several boys who would have liked a daughter makes me wonder if the situation fills a need in her too.
As a family we have relations who are gay, who have been cross dressers and one who got as far as gender reassignment surgery before his wife decided that was a step too far so he didn't have it. I have no judgement about any of them, I only feel sad that their journeys through life seem so fraught.

I agree but if I specifically ask for a female nurse or gynaecologist, I do not want a man looking like Danielle Moscato telling me, its OK because I am a woman. Oh no you are not, and I could be prosecuted for not letting him treat me.
I do not want an intact male in the dressing room or changing room with me or my daughter, no matter what he calls himself on that particular day.
Young people have enough pressures on them today without out and out gender botherers putting ideas in their heads
Let them slowly come to their own conclusions.

There is a world of difference between lesbians and homosexuals and transgender issues.

I am deeply, deeply worried about this. It all seems very one-sided, way over the top with a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon.

"A university has blocked research into gender reassignment reversal surgery because it is "politically incorrect", a researcher has claimed."
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-41385299

Maryeliza, my apologies. I misread your post. It was before my cup of coffee! Obviously still half asleep.

GoB, thank you for you post. It made things much clearer. I now need to go away and have a good think, especially about gender. I have always been on the "masculine" side in my lifestyle preferences, from the toys I played with as a child to the types of jobs I enjoyed as an adult, but I have never felt anything but 100% female. Would pressure be put on me now to transition do you think? If I was young again I mean.

Legs said I want to know that the "woman" in the toilet/treating me in Hospital/doing my smear test etc" is actually a woman & not an intact male

If she dresses as a woman and acts as a woman, that's good enough for me. It takes years to transition and it is not my business what stage she is at.
And have you never had a male doctor give you an internal examination or a smear test. I assure you, when there is need, it doesn't matter who is doing it as long as they are qualified!

Grumpyoldbat you've said it all as far as I'm concerned. My DD is married to a woman & they have 2 children (sperm donation), my DD is quite feminine wheras her OH is much more "mascaline", able to turn her hand to most practical tasks. My DD had boyfriends but found that her true happiness is with another woman. They have many lesbian & gay friends, many have become my friends. I have no knowledge of trans people but it does worry me that "gender fluidity" may become the norm. I want to know that the "woman" in the toilet/treating me in Hospital/doing my smear test etc" is actually a woman & not an intact male

I should add the daughter was lesbian too but the story is very long... but you get my drift.

I totally agree, who gives a jot what gender anyone is. I was actually introduced to somebody 2 weeks ago with "this is my lesbian daughter in law"...... I do not care what gender/sexuality anyone is.... a name would suffice... and a bit of respect would have been better.

can I say the young people I know who are transitioning have had NO pressure from outside influences whatsoever.Neither were they some sort of extreme Tomboys .It was a decision made by them after talking to their parents and their GP's .Both were around 15 when they made their choice ,both are .or appear to be,happy with that choice...oh and these young people aren't in the same social circle either ,they live over 20 miles apart ,one is a family friend and one a distant relative ..so they weren't colluding in any way to get what they wanted .I'm sure there must have been many many people in the not so distant past who had to bury these feelings and pretend to live a "normal" life .Thank heavens they can be themselves nowadays

I have to agree with those who say that the current trend for introducing these transgender concepts into schools is unwise. I can identify with this from a previous poster:
One of my DDs was to all intents and purposes a boy - she dressed like a boy, played with the boys, had no interest whatsoever in "girly" things (whatever they might be). She is now a happily married heterosexual with two children. My fear is that today a child like her will be filled with the current ideas that are being peddled, the teaching packs for primary pupils etc etc and will ask herself questions that do not need asking and go down routes that will ultimately damage her. That was me, into my mid teens if I am honest. (I still have a lot of the tomboy in me and have had for the fifty one years I've been married!). It's perfectly normal for children to have confusions about their gender and they should be left to work these out for themselves without people with one agenda or another putting pressure on them to take actions that could be hugely damaging.

Grumpy old bats post has now added much needed clarity to this thread. Thank you.

Have a quick look at Danielle Muscato :

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/4meyzt/danielle_muscato_im_sure_society_treats_her/