Gender critical trans woman

I think my biggest concern is the young children who will be exposed to ideas that might ultimately be to their detriment. They might be better off left to be themselves as children without having to "identify" with anything at all except their own humanity.

How many Gnrs understand what the poster of Gender Critical is a radical feminist subreddit to discuss gender from a critical perspective. is on about?

I have not heard quite such a feminist rant for a good few years. For once I am rather lost for words.

For us ordinary women who have not been deeply immersed in academic theories about feminism please explain more simply what the hell this is all about.
I find it very elitist to hear you present such language to this group of women,

We are not all academics and I find it very discourteous to everyone to be presented with this level of jargon.

Those of us who have not really understood what you are getting at will possibly feel put down.

If you want to make your point do it to suit your whole audience. Gender Critical is a radical feminist subreddit to discuss gender from a critical perspective. I despair! What the hell ????????????
Please rewrite clearly and in plain English.

Who cares, life's too blooming short, let people be what they want to be call themselves what they want to and get on with life in general Leave kids alone they ll find their level when times right
I too haven't got a clue what that sentence means and to be quite honest don't need to know or care subreddit sounds like a frog waiting to be called on the footie pitch

What the hell indeed! When I see or hear these discussions I feel that I have landed on another planet!

I cannot even discern what the meaning of the word critical is in this context: critical as in taking an opposite view; or critical as in of central importance?

I just want my DGC to have the opportunity to grow up in a relaxed environment with the right to simply be who they are without labels. I do not want some pundits imposing concepts on them that could be to their detriment. It is a frightening development and I simply feel sad about it.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/transgender-rules-reform-gender-dysphoria-changes-2004-gender-recognition-self-identify-a7855381.html

If you read this, you'll see that it's looking very likely that legislation is shortly to come in that will allow people to simply identify as the gender they wish compared to the process they have to go through at the moment.Trans activists ( generally men) who support this change are very influential in setting this agenda. It's a pity that some of you have been so dismissive/ rude to Azie, it's become a very complex issue and there is no simple way to explain all the various groups and subgroups within it. People who are concerned, are concerned for different reasons. I'm concerned because I'm a feminist and I believe this change will seriously undermine all the advances we have made as women. It seeks to deny the very essence of biological womanhood. In my opinion, some of the radical trans activists are seeing this as 'payback' time for the rise of women. And if only it were about changing rooms and toilets! We are sleepwalking into this legislation, its the 'Emperors new clothes'. No political party dare challenge it. And yet the implications are enormous - sport, women only scholarships, the rights of women to choose a biological woman as their doctor, rape counsellor, biological women's refuges and prisons . The right of women to be safe and to have their biological womanhood and the experiences that flow from that recognised and respected

"In my opinion, some of the radical trans activists are seeing this as 'payback' time for the rise of women." More puzzlement from me - are the folk who are in this category not men wishing to be women? Why would they wish to attack women?

As I said above, it is the children who are likely to be the victims here.

THey are men who want to identify as women as and when they wish - many of them ( all?) in this group are biologically intact and wish to stay so. If they want to transition 'properly' the current legislation allows for this. No it isn't only the children who will be victims here - in some ways we all will ( apart from this group) as undermining the rights of women will damage all of us. The 'prize' for self identification is that under the Equalities Act no one will be able to discriminate against them - if they say I'm a woman then they have to be treated as one. I think perhaps that some on this thread think it's all about giving rights to people who want to transition and no politician seems to want to talk about the rights that are being taken away from biological women. I do not want a man with a penis in any woman only safe spaces . But I want proper care and consideration for those who genuinely have body dysmorphia ( is that the right word?) that doesn't mean encroaching in my right to choose to be seen by a biological woman doctor

youtu.be/by_zO37tkIE

Oh I think that clip is quite dismissive. I just wanted to illustrate the person that wants to be identified as a six year old girl.

Maryeliza, you've obviously given lots of thought to this and I admit I've hardly given any so I have lots of unformed thoughts and questions. Please accept that anything I post is genuine if somewhat ignorant.

You posted earlier that the legislation would affect the right of women to chose another woman as a partner. Could you explain that a bit more? I don't see how it would make a difference.

Sorry Eglantine I didn't mean partner if I wrote that

Blimey, this gets curiouser and curiouser. I feel genuinely sorry for anyone who feels that they're in the wrong body as it must be very distressing - at least it's more out in the open now and can be discussed.
However, maybe all changing rooms or toilets could have an area where transgender people can go and no-one's safety is threatened.

I am very concerned about the notion of gender fluidity and how it will impact upon people, who are happy as they are, and who will have to deal with those who feel 'fluidity' is their right and along with that whatever it imposes upon others.

When I worked in the NHS, we did a survey about the uni sex toilets being proposed and had an overwhelming response from women who did not want them, due to men's poor hygeine practices. How will they feel about being in uni sex toilets at times when they may be feeling very exposed in other ways at clinics etc ? Are we to assume that because some minority groups want change that eveyone else has to roll over and change how they feel?

There is a school of thought, that transitioning is more of a mental health issue than a physical one and merely because we can do the surgery etc we should not see that as a solution. Many people post surgery remain very unhappy.

Personally, I think teaching this in schools and promoting it as an acceptable and simple option, is deviant, arrogant and dangerous. I know of one case of a person male/female who has died post op, not suicide and several who have taken their own lives.

Have we created this tide of uncertain sexes with our use of hormones for birth control and HRT? Is it another social construct? Obviously there have always been people with fluid gender but now they are a burgeoning number and in some distress and how has that happened?

I have to say, that I feel a good deal is a social construct, troubled people having their concerns hijacked and acted upon, while they are vulnerable, and activists and 'specialist' make capital out of their vulnerability.

Some men transition beautifully, my cousin Kevin did and now models in America, most look like Fred Flintstone in a frock and are forever rendered ridiculous.

At a family wedding last month, my formerly, normalish family presented as a 'care in the community outing' bordering on a freak show, hugely fat, tattooed people, single sex couple with turkey baster baby, heavily pierced bi sexual / bi polar niece with albino older man, pair of swingers with IVF twins (having previously abandoned a child because it did not fit in with lifestyle choices they made) all miserable in their newly found happiness. All busy being trendy and approved of. The single sexers had been married before and one of them left her child when she ran off, so all in all, in that one picture 3 children on the fringes of other people's 'choices'......not sure who the turkey baster was but have suspicions.

How will the future pan out for these people?

Are women going to have any value at all in this brave new word being forged around us? When we are 'accepting' what is it exactly that we are accepting, butchery of mentally ill people?

It is being promoted, not accpeted, foisted off on the rest of us as something we are wrong to even think twice about.

I am thinking and have been thinking for some time now.

I wanted to be a boy when I was a kid, Calamity Jane was my idol, as many other Tom Boys did, I grew out of that, why is it that now we seem in such a hurry to label our kids? Feed them hormones and put themunder the knife?

Why does sexuality make such a difference? Even when applying for a job or council tax rebate we are asked about it. The forms don't ask if we are artistic or kind or sporty or a good gardener, there is so very much more to being human. Who is forcing th is agenda?

I don't care what people do if it doesn't harm others and they don't make a fuss about it.

Toilets? Hmm. That's a different matter. Privacy and discretion and hygiene are pre-eminent.

I had no idea what the "subreddit" sentence was about, but reading the post further made it clear.
It didn't seem like a feminist rant, or any sort of rant, to me. It was just an explanation of the situation.

Wow radicalnan!! Forcing the agenda indeed and I fear for those who get trampled underfoot.

Here here annsixty.

I have a friend who fulfills the "Fred Flintstone in a frock" description. Is she happier now than she was before? - I do not know, but I do know that every time she steps outside her front door she is having to brazen it out and put on a good face because she looks so odd - how effortful and tiring it must be.

I suspect a lot of her previous unhappiness was not gender related at all and often wonder how much of that unhappiness has been solved by her extremely radical solutions that cost her dear in money and in health - massive blood transfusion needed after surgery.

This is why I do not want children exposed to this "agenda" - they only have one life and activists do not have the right to risk their happiness for their own political ends.

annsixty and Tessa101 say Codswallop.
What exactly are you saying "Codswallop" about?

Sexuality, sex, gender - we should be clear on what these words mean. I am fed up of people ( in general
I mean not on here specifically) muddling up sex and gender. As radical says ( or at least implied) gender is a social construct. We are not born with a gender but born into a society that has constructed gender in a particular way. But, apart from a few very sad cases, we are all born with a sex which is biologically determined. Our birth certificates have our sex on, not our gender, we can change gender but not sex. Sexuality is of course completely separate from
sex and gender but gets muddled up in the debate - by radical trans people in particular.

I really don't know what to say lost for words.

The feminists who are labelled 'TERF' (that stands for 'trans exclusionary radical feminist) and threatened with violence, abuse and other attacks (such as contacting employers and trying to get them fired, publishing their personal details online, preventing them from attending or speaking at events, the list goes on) are trying to make the case, reasonably and backed up with lots and lots of evidence, that:
- biological sex and gender are not the same thing. Biological sex is a material reality (if you have XX chromosomes, a uterus, breasts, a vagina, and the potential for producing ova, all those things, you are female; if you have a XY chromosomes, a penis and the potential for producing sperm you are male). Gender is a socially constructed set of codes of behaviour, with some traits being labelled masculine and some feminine, and the majority of society accepts those codes as the norm and people are expected to conform to them. Many feminists see gender as a problem for women, because most of the expected 'feminine' behaviours involve women being quiet, bringing up children and having very little power. These feminists also recognise that gender is a problem for men too - the expectations that 'masculinity' place on men are not helpful or positive for either men or women.
- a trans person can choose to take on board and live out their lives acting according to the opposite gender norms of their biological sex, but there is no amount of surgery that can change a person's biological sex.
- trans people exist. Feminists have never denied that fact. All we are saying is that while someone may be a trans person, they cannot change sex.

A major cause for concern to these feminists is the potential change to the law on gender recognition. It would remove the requirement to live as one's preferred gender for two years and access support and counselling services and would simply require, legally, the recognition of someone as the gender they say that they are, with all the access to single-sex spaces implicit in that. 80% of 'transwomen' (that is, men identifying as women) are intact males with no intention of having surgery. In other words they are biologically male, with penis and testicles, and intend to remain that way. An example of this is 'Danielle Muscato' (see the image and what he said on International Women's Day) who says that he is a woman, and lives in a women's refuge. Feminists are very concerned that women will no longer be able to have access to single sex facilities or request a biologically female medical practitioner: some examples encountered by feminists include a trans-identifying male bra-fitter, a trans-identifying male rapist being housed in a women's prison then needing to segregated because of harassment of female prisoners, a trans-identifying male nurse performing cervical smears, the list goes on. All of these case involve intact biological males presenting as females.

Feminists are also deeply concerned about the attacks and pressure on lesbian women, who are accused by trans-identifying males of being 'transphobic', 'bigoted' and perpetuating the so-called 'cotton ceiling'. And what is their crime? Not wanting to sleep with men, no matter how they present. The very definition of 'lesbian' means that they are not going to be interested sexually in anyone possessed of a penis. Yet the argument made by 'transactivists' is that a penis can be female if the person attached to it (a man) says it is. I am sure that I am not alone in finding that argument deeply creepy.

It is also terribly worrying that the trans-lobby are arguing for children to be allowed to transition, including access to hormones and puberty blockers (the long term-effects of which include infertility), mastectomies/castration and so on. The evidence suggests that a large percentage of those who identify as trans in their teens do not continue to do so and emerge as gay and lesbian adults. There is pressure being brought to bear by the same trans lobby to label as 'trans' and encourage in transition any gender non-conforming child (tomboys are not a thing apparently, they are trans). This is frankly terrifying.

I am sorry for this long post, but I know that a lot of people are unaware of the arguments raging. Those of us who are feminists (I don't see myself as a radical feminist, but I have been accused of being a TERF) are being silenced, threated and physically attacked by transactivists, whilst being accused of being bigots. All we have done is make a reasoned case for retaining sex-based protections for women, pointed out that sex and gender are not the same thing, and stated that changing sex is biologically impossible. There a significant numbers of post-operative transwomen who share our concerns and who are receiving horrific abuse from the transactivists (most of whom have penises) for saying that they are trans people not women. I have the greatest respect for all those women and trans people who are standing up and politely stating their case, backed up with scientific evidence, in the face of abuse, threats and violence. If this is seen as a 'fringe' or 'minority' issue and ignored by all the women out there who do not see themselves as feminists, do not be surprised when you find that you cannot object to the presence of a man in your most personal and intimate spaces without being accused of a hate crime. Is that what you want? No? Then get in touch with organisations like Transgender Trend and Fair Play for Women and Girls, write to your MP and tell your friends about it - it is easier to prevent a bad law from being enacted in the first place than it is to repeal it afterwards.

That is a brilliant post GOB which imo covers all the points that need to be made and understood. I think it was in the Spring when there was to be a private members bill on this put forward by Maria Miller - I wrote to my MP and received back a letter clearly written by MM's office that addressed none of my concerns. I later found out that a carbon copy of this letter was being sent to constituents by different MPs all over the country. The radical trans lobby is very well funded, organised and positioned in Westminster. I think MPs dare not speak out against them. But I'll try writing to mind again - I'll
Customise your post if you don't mind - I couldn't be fo clear and eloquent

my MP I meant not mind

I wonder what proportion of the population is pressing for these 'rights'. I think we can see only too easily how rights to womens' safe spaces could lead to abuse of those rights by some men. I think that's a valid concern that should be taken seriously.

I am reminded of the case reported in the US where an intact man was purporting to be a woman to the extent where he took part in women's sports. Not too surprisingly, he often won.

When asked to take a blood test to determine gender, he refused and eventually became so incensed that he murdered the coach who wanted the information.

Is it too much to hope that, in all these deliberations about 'rights' to whichever gender someone feels comfortable with, some common sense creeps in?