I know my place

Well, I have learnt a new word, precariat. I know which class I came from, established middle, and the class DH came, working class,
from but there does not seem a class to fit us. The tech.middle class is too 'techy' for us.

I would probably say I was "traditional working class" but without the security of the regular pay packet of an electrician or a lorry driver .

Hyacinth Bucket comes to mind

WKf if I look at my life using that scale against the households I have been part of it goes:

Technical middle class (different emerging technology but comparable)
New affluent
Established middle class
Traditional working class
Precariat

Although the people I mix with and the things I enjoy come (and always came) from all those stages.

Divorce and ill health led to taking steps down the perceived ladder. I think not being part of one strata of society is much more common these days and I certainly don't feel upset by people trying to describe parts of society. It is just a tool to try and understand what is happening and, often, what can be done. In some ways (financially) I am certainly at the bottom of society, in others I am not, I am still managing to hang on to my own home and enjoying many of the things I have always enjoyed.

Using a shorthand to describe the multiplicity of difficulties many of the people in the tower may have had is only "deeply offensive" if it is taken in that way. It shows no signs of being so either in the actual words or in the use. Chips on shoulders come to mind.

Thank you Wilma, but I have no time for it, I know it is still as strong now as it ever was. Think Oxbridge, the City, doesn't mean I have to accept it. And I do know many still aspire to move up a class , how sad.

Nothing will change my opinion that calling the residents of thst tower block the bottom of society was offensive

Most of the best council housing in my town was built in the late 50's early 60's (some in the 70's but they're just awful flat roofed boxes). The earlier built ones are all very large, brick built and traditionally quite good looking homes. They are all built with paths and roads with patches of green dotted here and there. They have large rooms and many have been bought under the right to buy scheme. Some of the better ones are fetching more on the market than a privately built home as the rooms are much bigger and you can do a lot with them. The council houses built in the 70's look like they were thrown up. Really ugly things with cladding and no bricks. They were virtually all built with flat roofs although an ongoing improvement program is putting roofs onto them. They were built in clusters with paths but very little road access. Not many of these have been bought as I could imagine they would be a liability.

Just what I thought, Wilma, traditional working class.

The last time my husband was involved in designing council housing was in 1975-6, Wilma, so that explains it.
The council house we lived in then was very large compared with the private house we moved into afterwards.

Annie you might be interested in the theory that's replaced the idea of just three social classes.

The seven social classes

Elite - This is the wealthiest and most privileged group in the UK. They went to private school and elite universities and enjoy high cultural activities such as listening to classical music and going to the opera.
Established middle class - This is the most gregarious and the second wealthiest of all the class groups. They work in traditional professions and socialise with a wide variety of people, and take part in a wide variety of cultural activities.
Technical middle class - This is a small, distinctive and prosperous new class group. They prefer emerging culture, such as social media, and mix mainly among themselves. They work in science and tech and come from middle-class backgrounds.
New affluent workers - These people are economically secure, without being well-off. This class group is sociable, has lots of cultural interests and sits in the middle of all the groups in terms of wealth. They're likely to come from working class backgrounds.
Traditional working class - This group has the oldest average age, and they're likely to own their own home. They mix among themselves and don't enjoy emerging culture. Jobs in this group include lorry drivers, cleaners and electricians.
Emergent service workers - These young people have high social and cultural capital - so they know people from all different walks of life, and enjoy a wide range of cultural activities - but are not financially secure.
Precariat - The poorest and most deprived social group. They tend to mix socially with people like them and don't have a broad range of cultural interests. More than 80% rent their home.

At this point in my life I find myself in the bottom class and in my case this is because I can no longer work for health reasons. I used to be a New Affluent Worker, but I can no longer afford to do the things I used to do.

If anyone else is interested in finding out what class they come in try this BBC quiz from a few years ago -
The Seven Classes

Mandatory Parker Morris standards were abolished in 1980 as part of the changes to council housing introduced by Margaret Thatcher (Right to Buy was 1979). My long post from yesterday at 23.47 gives a brief(!) history of public housing.

I tried to say this in my other long post from early this morning at 00.14, but I think a large part of society does look down on council tenants and I gave my reasons why I think this is in that post. Funnily enough, I don't think Housing Association tenants are viewed quite the same way.

Actually, Cherrytree, we've twice lived in council houses, twice in private rented, and the rest in our own mortgaged homes.
You are right about the council houses being much bigger than the private ones. They were built to Parker Morris standards, much bigger floor area.
Unfortunately I think that changed when housing associations had to take over. Sad really. Particularly when the government brought in the bedroom tax.

It always has been Phoenix, for all those who life throws bad times at. I am surprised you didn't get your mortgage interest paid if you would, had you been renting, got that. It is all so complicated that I have no idea how people find their way through it all.

Perhaps this is off piste, if so, I apologise.

When we had the most horrendous financial problems a while back, we would have got more help/support if we had been renting, our mortgage wasn't taken into consideration when calculations were made.

The way that the amount of money deemed enough to live on is calculated is laughable.

Cherry,it was not used in a derogatory manner, but it was said during a discussion on the tower fire, so it was that persons views on the tenants , he saw them as the bottom of society , I don't care if he was being sympathetic, it should not have been said. Others disagree , fair enough, I do not agree with any group of people being being classed the bottom of society.

We do not have to live with people's predjudices, if everyone accepted predjuduce as you do GG, there would be no gay rights, no racial discrimination act, we would still have hotels with signs, no Irish, no blacks, no dogs, so much we would still have to accept if we took your attitude

We all have to live with other people's prejudice Cherrytree. The families you know seem (no joke intended) very grounded. As long as we are aware of our own worth and that of other people's why worry if some people are ignorant. We still don't know if this, possibly careless phrase, was even used in a derogatory manner - and I rather think we never will.

I know families that live in council houses and are quite happy.
One such friend owns a garage
The other friend has a house in Goa.
Both say they like their neighbours and have all the amenities close by .
They also state that the rooms and garden are much bigger than in new builds.
I don't think that either would consider themselves bottom of any pile.

My grandparents lived on a housing scheme.
It's where I have my fondest memories.
All the roads were called after trees

I would like annie be most upset if they had been considered bottom of any heap/pile.
They built The Queen Mary and The QE 2 and many of the other great ships.

Cringe away - I can't speak for others who use these words but as for me, I couldn't give a flying fig and secondly, I don't associate the words with the 'young' - what a very odd thing to say -

Oh dear, you poor old things. Never mind, you'll catch up eventually.

roses
How true. I cringe when I see a certain few posters use these words.

You're right roses. They've only really caught on with a couple of posters and who knows whether they're being used accurately? Very odd...

What argument?

Annie I tried to answer your question at 00.14 this morning.

You asked about 'we' Annie. That was nothing to do with my post but a straw man argument or whatifery and you have achieved what you set out to do and wasted my time. Well done you; I'm sure it makes you feel you have achieved something. When you actually address the argument I put forward, then I will believe you have.

I addressed myself to your post but you haven't given a reply, jut posted waffle and now as so often your doing a runner