Remembrance Day and Poppies

a thousand years, men will still say, This was their finest hour."

Jalima did you bother to read the article

Yes I read it and read it out to DH. Many RBL members may not be aware of this link as they beaver away working hard for the charity. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

is it too pacifist for your taste?
I wondered whether to ignore that rude remark, but then realised that some people see things only in black or white, in extremes. I believe in peace but would not want to collaborate with an enemy invader, whereas I think you said in another post that you would see what they had to say, but I for one don't believe in peace by collaboration with evil.
DH lost his father for the sake of the peace which you enjoy today. He works hard for the RBL in his father's memory.
But perhaps some people feel it would have been better to have let the Nazis invade and take over our country. Some of us would not have freedom of speech now if they had - but of course, some would be in positions of greater power.

I do not think it is widely known amongst many of the wider RBL members, many of whom are now ageing, of the modern links with the weapons industry.
Certainly many of the older members are uneasy with the more aggressive marketing these days.
However, the old boys - and girls - some in their 80s, organising the Poppy Appeal and trying to do good by raising money for people who served in the Forces who may now need help for any reason whatsover - not because they are injured necessarily - and for their families would be very upset by your belief that they do not believe in peace.

I always find it ironic that the people who claim to be pacifists on social media are often the most aggressive and unkind posters.
Why is that?
Can anyone explain it please?

These poems have always stayed in my memory - the juxtaposition of the weapon and the beauty of nature and the irony of Wilfred Owen's poem:
allpoetry.com/Naming-of-Parts
www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html

Do you not know that the most fervent prayers of the Remembrance Service are for peace on earth?
As long as evil exists there will be people who are willing to fight for peace.

Another of Wilfred Owen's poems, Strange Meeting:
www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/47395
He was one of the poets we studied at school in the mid- 50s.

If accusing me of being willing to collaborate with an imaginary invader in a theoretical invasion of Britain isn't taking things to extremes I don't know what is. I actually said I didn't know if I could kill anybody and I would have to see what the invader's policies were before I decided on a course of action. But feel free to regard that as collaboration if it makes you feel better.
I too think that many of the members of the British Legion will be unaware of its involvement with the arms industry and if anyone asks me why I am not wearing a poppy I will explain.
I too could list dead relatives and long-term supporters of the Legion, thankfully they haven't lived to see the current re-branding.
Perhaps you find our postings more aggressive because we know we have right on our side and are passionate about our commitment to peace, and refuse to toe the jingoistic line, now being pedaled to our grandchildren, that war is a glorious and patriotic experience rather than the sacrifice of young and vulnerable people it really is.
If you enjoy war poetry do you believe it is right to cut verses from an ant-war song like Willie MacBride as the British Legion did?
Cut verse
Ah, young Willie McBride, I can't help wonder why,
Did all those who lay here really know why they died?
And did they believe when they answered the call,
Did they really believe that this war would end war?
For the sorrow, the suffering, the glory, the pain,
The killing and dying were all done in vain,
For, young Willie McBride, it all happened again,
And again and again and again and again.

I just sasid that I would not collaborate with evil.

If you think I said that you would do so I would ask you to re-read my post.

No-one pedals to our grandchildren that war is a glorious and patriotic experience rather than the sacrifice of young and vulnerable people, rather the line is that we remember them and thank them for their sacrifice in fighting evil and give the most utmost feeling to prayers for peace - all around the world.
By thinking of these horrors we strengthen our resolve to try our utmost not to let evil prevail in future.

If people cannot see that Hitler was evil and would have just rolled over and let him and his Nazis invade and are not thankful to those who were wounded or died in doing so then I do wonder what they think the alternative would have been.
If people are not glad to see the Peshmerga and others going into Mosul and ridding the town of Isil and liberating the people there, then I wonder how they would feel if it was them being subjugated.

I feel the utmost compassion for them and I am glad that these brave soldiers of today are fighting for liberty.
The alternative is too horrible to contemplate.

The alternative would have been to not let Hitler have the power he had. It should have been recognised and dealt with earlier.

The alternative to not having the Peshmerga going into Mosul would to have not had Shock and Awe in the first place which allowed ISIL to grow.

Oh keep your emphasis on one war if you must but try to consider as well the numbers of soldiers who have died in unnecessary conflicts because of the policies of governments. How many of those conflicts were caused by and the armaments supplied by those same governments and reflect on how many of those soldiers imagined they were fighting for freedom when they were just pursuing some ill thought out policy.
Mosul is the result of such a policy.
You never commented on Willie McBride.

I am not sure how the British, the French, the Poles could have not let Hitler have the power he had.

How can we prevent Trump being elected - if he is?
The truth is, we can't, it is not our country.

And no, I agree, we should not interfere in the politics of other countries so that is a Catch 22 situation.

www.ppu.org.uk/ppushop/ This is where you can buy white poppies.

I am in favour of remembering those who fought and those who died or were injured in wars, past and present and using that money to hopefully make their lives easier; but I also feel that the wearing of a white poppy is a way of saying we must not forget to work for peace, to defy the arms trade, to pester our MPs on every front to make decisions that will make war less likely.

I have to admit that I do find some of the militaristic celebrations on armistice day very hard to swallow. It does seem inappropriate to me. No gun salutes please.

I agree, Lucky. In some ways it makes me think of Russia's May Day parades.
There should be no military parades.

I always think of the salute as a sign of respect for those who were lost, telling them they will not be forgotten, it is the names on the war memorial they turn to here, not a military leader.
Standards are lowered for the silence which is a time to think and reflect.

It's how you perceive it, I suppose.

Russia's May Day Parades are a parade showing the world their military might, nothing like a Remembrance Day Parade.

As I said, it's how you perceive it I suppose.

I remember the Remembrance Day services in my school. Hardly anyone wore a poppy and the teachers, who must have served, never wore any medals and never stood to attention. The mood was one of regret and sorrow, and the conviction that it should never happen again. The only vaguely military related thing was The Last Post, sounded, at the end of the service, from outside the entrance to the hall, so it echoed around the whole school. Of course we were remembering not only the military but the huge numbers of civilians killed when our town was bombed. Gun salutes, medals and marching would have offended many.

We didn't have a service at my school.
Our HM was a Quaker.

we do have a service here remembering the bravery of a young sailor lost at Gallipoli, his relatives always attend too; without his bravery many more would have died.

I do not agree with war, I hate war and bloodshed, DF was in two wars and hated what he saw.
I would not wear a red and white poppy together (red and white means blood and bandages). I don't agree with jingoism, triumphalism, only in defence, quiet reflection and a desire for peace.

But:

The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing
Edmund Burke (possibly).

Doing nothing is sometimes not possible.

My father refused his medals and refused to have anything to do with poppies etc. He said he had no desire to remember or to be reminded.

Best argument I have ever seen for combating the arms industry Jalima

Why can't people be allowed to just remember our fallen service personnel without being challenged for heavens sake.

Wear your red poppy, white poppy, or no poppy, nobody has a right to tell you to other wise.

It is none of their business.

I think it is everyone's business that people on TV - whether presenters, newscasters, interviewers or interviewees - are pressured to wear a poppy. Apparently those who have refused to do so are given a very hard time.

People can wear a poppy if they choose to but, in my view anyway, the ever lengthening period of remembrance has become less of a quiet, commemorative act and more one of public posturing.

For those who are looking for white peace poppies here is the picture I am using this week on my facebook page

I think this is one of the things I had in mind when I wrote my original post.*Eloethan*, public posturing and fashion statements are light years away from the true significance of poppies.

Eloethan I don't think anyone should be made to wear a poppy or be given a hard time if they do not, that's why I made the ironic comment earlier in the thread about 36 million (as far as I remember that's correct) poppies are made each year, half of them going to the BBC.
It seems to be obligatory for all staff, visitors, performers - everyone at the BBC - to wear a poppy.

I don't think that the period of time for wearing one has lengthened, the Poppy Appeal is launched on a certain day each year so that is when they are normally worn, from then until 11th November. Some people do wear a brooch, pin, wristband all year round, but then again, that is their choice.

That is what it is all about - freedom to choose.

That's nice, Granny23, did you grow them yourself?

The only ones that survive in my garden are the salmon pink ones which grow like weeds!

I've just had a youngish, female poppy-seller say sarcastically as I walked past 'left your poppy at home have you?'

I stopped, turned and said 'No!'

What kind of attitude is that from a poppy-seller?

Diabolical!!!