He might not make his next birthday!

Anyone who wants to know about the increase in racist incidents should read the reports of these meetings.

www.hopenothate.org.uk/more-in-common/

Abbey's logic is fairly twisted based on her own anecdotes. She dismisses the 6m people who live in the capital as living in a "silly bubble" . Sees to me that she is living in a "silly bubble", believing that non English people are the cause of all society's ills. She claims racist incidents have not increased, just weren't reported before. How does she know if they weren't reported? Oops, forgot- she worked in a pie factory with lots of non English/ non white people who didn't speak English. Guess what - People in the silly bubble live and work with non white and non English people and it isn't an issue. ( oh and she's not racist,but...)

Eirel I meet up with 13 school friends each month I am the ONLY one to vote to remain
I think there is real validity in not allowing the vote over 75 we probably will not be around to see the results to pick up the pieces
No voting before 18 because they are deemed not to know enough so I totally understand there should be a cut off date too
I think the young people who think like this are perfectly right and I think we should be big enough to understand this
Different subject entirely and I ll probably get shot down with virtual butters but I think there should also be a cut off date for driving I know a 90 year old who doesn't see well still happily driving, been on the pavement a couple of times ... Everyone's loses ability at different stages of old age and a 90 year old may still be competent so a national cut off age would take care of all

Childish, abbey.
How are foreign and immigrant different in the minds of the ignorant?

No, I have an unusual name which I discovered had been deemed to be "foreign" by the ignorant. I think you want an argument for arguments sake and to try and wrestle some kind of racist comment from me. Tough. You lost ( again).

Interesting. You said the only indication was in the names given.
Did you not say earlier that you had a name which could have been taken as immigrant?
Are you not guilty of doing the same?

Very generally, as to why I am always somewhat skeptical of statistics and newspaper reports.

When something is reported as having increased, lets say by 58%. My first question is 58% of what? What was the base figure on which this apparently enormous increase has taken place? When dealing with small numbers, 58% may mean one extra report.

My second question becomes ,how are the reports classified? Has there been a change in how things are classified? Have incidents been classified by some subjective criteria? For example, one report in the local paper here has claimed a racially motivated incident between two groups of youths in a street fight.

The reports seems to have no more evidence of this being racially motivated than it was simply a booze fueled brawl. Six months ago similar incidents were reported and described as such (and no doubt the police took the same view). It seems now that if one party has a particular group or nationality it is racial.

Thirdly, it disquiets me that the media are picking up on these things but not on issues the other way round eg, ethnic groups picking on British people for example. Thats not classed as racial, but it may well be just as so motivated( if indeed any are so motivated.

Finally , no one ever mentions such things when it comes to other crimes. For example, the brand new five bar gate that was removed from a field near here by a group of EU migrants who came equipped it seems. Or the sheep rustling or the potatoes that were dug up from a farmers field overnight..... yes the police caught and prosecuted the offenders and they were found guilty as charged and papers reported it in " the courts" section. The only indication was in the names given. Same goes when discussing drug dealing gangs or similar.
Biased reporting I think.

So, I remain a skeptic.

I was not trying to twist things.
You said the numbers have not increased and you stand by it, but give no proof.
The police authorities say they have.
Iknow who I will believe.

The fact that you condone intimidating and abusive behaviour from what I will contiunue to describe as "louts" says it all really abbey

I do not condone any such behaviour. I have been very careful not to condone such behaviour in my comments.

However,I can understand it.

I do not consider calling young people " louts" to be any less offensive than calling racist names after members of other cultures or countries. That you see fit to try and defend that says more than enough about yourself rather than anything about me.

I dislike twisters and turners of argument. So I will leave this here. I have other things to do, which clearly you do not.

The fact that you condone intimidating and abusive behaviour from what I will contiunue to describe as "louts" says it all really abbey.

I don't know to which period in time you are referring, but in the 70's very few British people wanted to do jobs like nursing. I believe the case remains that it is difficult to employ and retain nursing staff.

Eloethan. When I was teaching A levels, there were many youngsters who wanted to train as nurses or get jobs as health care assistants. Most found it very hard to actually get placements.I am not blaming anyone in particular but it may well seem to those " louts" as you call them, that their aspirations had been shut down by opportunities taken by others. I am not suggesting it is right to blame the individuals but you try getting at the government in their little bubble. It doesnt happen does it?

Even now,it seems that the government are still not listening to what people have said, when they have made it clear we want out of the EU.

*Racism might have always happened.
It's the increase in the numbers that you were disputing, saying it was always exaggerated in the media*

No. Dont try to twist things.
I said that the numbers had not increased and the media are hyping it up now. I stand by that. I do not care what you think of me for that.

It's the owners of the food factories who are talking about going home. No jobs then for English or Polish

Not where I live. The factory was British owned (a very well known one makes lots of pies and cakes for lots of different British companies). It was the agency they used/use that employed foreign workers and not local workers.

If they stopped using that agency or that agency goes away,the jobs will still be there unless there is a downturn in trade ( and that has not been happening). If they employed workers directly or used an agency who recruited local staff, they would probably get a lot of locals applying.

There is a lot of unemployment around here and I know many would like jobs. Its not about the lazy workshy.

My husband came to this country in 1970, having responded to advertisements in the local papers asking for trainee nurses. He arrived in the UK on Christmas Eve and was greeted by snow. He started work the very next day, with no "induction period" - just thrown in at the deep end during the bank holiday period when staffing levels were even more depleted than normal. Most of the nurses in the hospital were either from far flung parts of the world or from Southern Ireland.

It was a demanding and stressful job with signficant staffing shortages, very long hours and poor pay. Nevertheless, the local youths at one of the hospital social club's dances surrounded us one evening shouting about how my husband and "wogs" like him had taken their jobs. I would have liked to have seen any of those louts doing a very difficult job in the conscientious and compassionate way that my husband and many of his overseas colleagues did.

I'm sick to death of this continual blaming of immigrants - whether from the EU or other parts of the world - for all the ills of this country. I understand that many communities have been neglected and let down but why not place the blame where it should lie - with government.

Racism might have always happened.
It's the increase in the numbers that you were disputing, saying it was always exaggerated in the media. It isn't.
It's the owners of the food factories who are talking about going home. No jobs then for English or Polish.

The work was minimum wage, unskilled and 12 hour shifts ( I had to sign a disclaimer to say I agreed to working outside the EU directives). So,the EU was of no use there either.

It was soul destroying. I did it because we had fallen on hard times in that period. Then I got a job doing supply teaching ( using one of my qualifications). A similar story. Classrooms packed and overflowing with non English speaking children.

This is not being " racist". This is just describing things as I found them. I do not condone racial attacks but neither can be be simplistic about the causes or the problems some sectors of the population have experienced.

It is not a matter of believeing police figures or anothing else. I know the police have said they will come down ery hard on racist attacks and racism in my area.

Of course, I cannot condone the attacks but trying to lid the issue by " coming down hard" isnt going to make it go away, anymore than by saying it is happening post Brexit means it was not happening before.

It was happening - and the real problem is that no one can say anything, discuss the matter or make comment for fear of being accused of that horrid thing "racism".

Its not possible to look at the underlying causes when you throw racism around.

The fact is the matter of resentment to other nationalities has bubledaway for a very long time in the UK - especially certain parts of it whilst some folk constantly try to make it out to be " nasty people" when in fact it is more related to shortage of resources and some groups of people constantly feeling they are being discriminated against to the advantage of others.

I worked in a food factory for a while after I lost my last but one job. I got my job by applying directly to the firm ( and got lucky). However, I was placed in a department where all the workers were either EU nationals or Middle Eastern origin. None spoke English. They were all employed via an agency. The agency was run by EU nationals whop actively recruited from amongst their own people in their own country in their own language.If you didnt speak that language you had little or no chance.

Ditto, the middle eastern workers.

I cannot begin to explain the awful nightmare that it was working in that environment being the only English speaker and not speaking the other dominant languages. I cannot begin to describe how isolated I felt in the six months I worked there. Breaks and lunchtimes were the worst. Occasionally another English worker would appear ( from other depts) but not often. It was terrible. Add to that the cultural differences where men from some cultures seem to think that (for want of a better term) " groping" was acceptable. Some were looking for a woman of English birth to woo so they could get a passport too. I am not kidding. I found all these things out.

There was little or no chance of getting a job if you were local and English speaking.It turned out I got a job because I had a foreign sounding name (its actually an old English name but it was unusual enough to make some think it was foreign and so I was given a job.

Against this kind of backdrop a lot of local people were/ are losing out.Its no use saying they do not want the jobs. They do not get a look in.

Now, if that is too close to the racist knuckle I am sory, but sometimes the truth hurts.

Similar situation was experienced by my DH who tried for a job in the local hospital. The recruitment was dominated by certain agencies( food provision for example). The rest was a result of "quota filling" and meeting "diversity" criteria in the NHS. Upshot, dont be English speaking and Brit.

During this time I also had the misfortune to have to go into hospital. There is nothing more soul destroying that being unwell and not being able to make yourself understood because your cares do not speak your language.

Please do not try to tell me how wonderful it is we have these people. There are loads out there who cant get jobs. Most could do the jobs concerned. they just do not get the chance. Thats experience talking, not PC thinking.

Instead of trying to " be hard" on something ask why is it happening and address that.

Eloethan, my son and his wife are teachers in Sunderland. Three of the staff were talking about Brexit in the staff room, when one of the cleaners said she had voted out.
My son said you realise that my wife is European and she had no idea. She thought she must have been born in England, thought her strong Spanish accent was just because she taught languages!

The police records in the North EAST say that raciall attacks reported have icreased by 58% since Brexit.

You do not have to believe police records, of course. They do not all get reported. My local free paper said about attacks in Consett, particularly the Polish people, and many of them are thinking of going back to Poland, even though they have lived here for over half their lives.
There's a big Polish food factory there. If they leave, the jobs will disappear.
Of course, you do not have to believe those people, either. After all, they are just Europeans - what do they know?

On the subject if racial attacks post Brexit. I live in one of those (quite a few really) areas where it is claimed this is happening. This is not a post Brexit phenomena. There have been many racial incidents across many years here for a long time. Most have never got beyond two sentences in the local weekly rag. The media are hyping it by reporting and you are buying it, hook line and sinker.

*But then, those more likely to answering a poll are probably the same demographic group as those more likely to vote.
ie those with more time perhaps?
ie the old codgers who are now in trouble for exercising their franchise as they have been brought up to do?*

If that were the case the polls like YouGov and others would have got the result right but they did not. Those who sign up to those things are a skewed population.Mostly to the young and those who have computers and are always stuck on them.

Some of us work. We have limited time. We value privacy and confidentiality and do not sign onto YOUGov etc.
The old fashioned poll in the street ( which might have yeiled more accuracy seems to have been lost) Exit polls were banned for the referendumso what came as no surprise to many like me,seemed to floor the remainders and the power bases as well assilly bubble London.

Then came the recriminations and the moans and the groans.

I am quite annoyed now. I am tired of the selfish youth thinking that my vote affects them but I am past it - well sonny Jim and silly Jane (and Thomas Richard and Harriet granma's too) I am not ruddy well past it. I am not about to pop my clog yet and I am likely to be around to see the results of my vote , having at least another 30 years of life left in me yet. So get over it. I voted for the future - mine and they youngsters.

Instead of moaning at me and placing blame outside yourselves start looking at why the result really was for a brexit. Start looking at your own campaign . If you are so certain that remain was the right thing ,then why did you fail to convince the main electorate? Why was your remain campaign based on fear and division and celebrity look at me's? If you had such a good set of reasons for remaining why did you and your side not simply present them?

I conclude you had no good reasons so you could not run a successful campaign to persuade others to vote your way and we ( the leavers) saw through your bluster and gloom and got fed up of being presented with a bunch of has beens, lame ducks, also rans, pink berets and I am a ( very rich) celebrity "Do as I say". They were all clearly in it for themselves and didn't give a XXXX what it meant for the rest of us.

Well, since when have intelligent and mature people taken notice of that? That sort of campaign is usually best aimed at the youngsters- and clearly that didnt work on them either as they were busy doing other things or not bothering.

I didnt base my judgement on the lies ( of which there was plenty on both sides), or on fear or on past glories ( of which I have seen very few in the last 40 years).

I based it on sound research, personal experience , which cannot be trumped by any other when in doubt, and on the fact that. I perceived it for a failed social,political and economic experiment that was only being propped up by political will power. That the problems and instabilities, political , civil and economic (with high youth unemployment) and grand designs of making EU armies and everyone joining the already failing Euro was not the way forward. That way lies only possible war and certain economic catastrophe.

I have seen nothing since to change my mind.

Now you want to whinge? Well, the EU is still there. Go, get on a plane, a boat or a train and join them.

This is a free country. You can leave anytime. The door is over there (to the East).

Stop blaming others. Look at how you failed and lost. You were not robbed. Your arguments did not come up to the mark. You lost fair and square.

Although it seems to be that the younger generation were more likely to vote to stay in and the older generation were more likely to vote to leave, it certainly wasn't a hard and fast rule. As with all these generalisations, their purpose appears mainly to be to stir up bad feeling between one group and another.

Looking around my own family and friends, I voted to remain, my husband voted to leave, my son and his partner voted to remain, my daughter and her son didn't think either side represented what they believe in and so didn't vote, one of my friends voted Remain, her husband voted leave, another friend and her husband both voted Remain, their son voted Leave (to "get rid of all the foreigners taking our jobs". (in his 40's, he has hardly worked at all and when he was admitted to hospital recently, my friend pointed out that most of the people looking after him were "foreigners"), my friend, her husband and family in Sunderland (where 60% voted to leave) all voted to remain. It's ridiculous to blame one group or another for any outcome because everybody is different and not everybody conforms to a particular trend.

Also, whilst younger people have benefited from certain things that older people haven't, the converse is also true.

I'm fed up with all the divisiveness that has been created over the last few years - about age, race, employment status, religion, class, etc. etc. In my view, one of the most important ways in which governments can persuade people to accept, and even champion, policies that entrench inequality and injustice is to get them fighting against each other.

Bluecat I think many of us are hoping to be around for many years & not "fall off our perch" tomorrow. I am only 60, my Mum is 87 & I had Great Aunts who lived well into their 90s & even one who reached 100 - therefore I could potentially have 30-40 years on this Earth. I voted for my future & my Daughter & Grandson's future. Young people need to think twice before speaking & after all we can all remember pre Common Market days. Still you can't put an old head on young shoulders!!

Good point, Granvee. I reckon a lot of pensioners living in Spain will be forced to return to the UK because of healthcare. Spanish Healthcare honours the UKS NHS pensioners because they are in the EU. Now, this will change. Those who are older will not be able to get private healthcare (anyone over 65 is pretty well out of luck, and if they can get health coverage, it will cost 100s of euros a month)

L

Oh thanks everyone. I didn't realise they did these polls on this occasion.

Ajanela, my husband died at 65, six months after he got his state pension. I presume I am allowed to live a bit longer, up to 70, maybe, to make up for that?