Have you made your mind up about the referendum?

Hear Hear Rose.

Perhaps rather than those that pay tax, those that are liable for tax. ie have a tax code.

Frank Field is arguing that Cameron's useless EU negotiations have proved him to be a poor man for the job of British Prime Minister. Field argues that if Cameron had allowed more time for the negotiations he might have achieved something useful. As it is it looks like a hasty cock up. He's also arguing that whichever way the vote goes next month, we need a new PM and that the referendum gives Labour an opportunity, in the words of Thunderer, to "punch the government on the nose".

Frank Field is Labour MP for Birkenhead and a Leaver.

Always liked Frank Field, a calm thoughtful and insightful person.

Speaking as one who has come out in the earlier survey as 52% out. I'm actually going to vote to stay, and feel more committed than that! But I can see good reasons for leaving as well as for staying.

I think we can all see and agree with arguments on both sides. I am voting to remain, but feel uneasy about the democratic gap and think this should be addressed as a matter of urgency.
I am also unhappy about the way Greece has been treated, and the way national politics impinge on decisions made by EU, for example we know that Germany's decision with regard to the money being released or not to Greece is strongly influenced by its up and coming election. We belong to a club which makes decisions to keep the members economically healthy and equal with regard to access to the single market. Decisions regarding this should be made collectively.

Hells bells Whitewave, using words like "we all agree", I must be reading the wrong thread

Come come ladies!!! A little decorum please?

Normally Britain and British people do have a good sense of fair play so maybe are needed by the EU to keep things in a bit of balance. I think poor Greece is taking the brunt of things and also Italy. But the refugee crisis is a real problem for everyone - I think many of them would like eventually to go home - they are used to an entirely different lifestyle and are likely to find much of Europe more difficult than they imagine. We need to help them try and rebuild their countries from the bomb site ruins many of them have become.

and I'm sure you are right Maggiemaybe

I like Frank Field too, but I think he has made a misjudgement there. If we vote to stay (likely I think) then I presume DC will stay on as PM and what would be the point of Labour punching the government on the nose as more Labour politicians than Tories are for in than out.

Frank Field is an exception (I think I mentioned him in an earlier post, or it could be another thread, losing the will to vote the track now). There was a reply but I've forgotten it

Befuddled of the UK.

Welshwife
I agree.

However, even if we feel sorry for Greece (and I do) we'd do well to remember how they all avoided paying their taxes - not just the rich in their case.

The EU might be on the verge of, if not imploding, then being serously disrupted. The Czech Republic PM Bohuslav Sobotka has warned that if the UK exits, they could follow and in an opinion poll in the Netherlands, a majority of voters said they back the country having its own in/out referendum.

Several states have political parties advocating withdrawal from the EU.

Perhaps it is time to throw out all the present bureaucrats, unelected by us commissioners, hangers-on and time to re-vamp the EU totally.

Perhaps what we need is a European Common Market.

Anya. Exactly! Camarons had the whip hand when he went to Europe with the begging bowl. But because he had as much idea as the man in the moon as to the way the wind was blowing in Europe he came away with bugger all. If he understood that millions of people in lots of countries wanted to leave, he would have understood he held all the cards.
Brussels would have given way on a lot more.

If we remain we will have no say whatsoever. Back Britain not Brussels.

I'm backing Britain Firecracker. Brexit for me.

I just wish Cameron would state the advantages of staying IN instead of giving a list of negatives if we exit. He has really put me off. He sounds desperate.

What advantages have the Brexiters given? None as far as I can see.

There are a lot of positives for staying in - many of which have been listed on here.
If we Brexit we will then have no say in how the EU is reformed - I think with the rattling of Sabres that is going on at the moment it will be reformed - Jumker has said this as well as others. The worst thing would be to have left and then see it reformed in a way which would have been very much to our advantage. Everyone says that Cameron got nothing but that is not really true. He got what he wanted it with the migrants not being able to access our benefits system for four years - that is a huge thing and will stop those just wanting to take from UK - those wishing to work - the great majority - it will make no difference to.
We will be short of workers if we stop the legal migration - both for their necessary skills and also the taxes they contribute. The illegal migration which at the moment is mainly stopping at Calais will get through to Dover to start with and then spread to other places. That side of the migration will be far worse - once in UK human rights can be cited to prevent deportation - that seems to work well for a lot of people.
If we vote to leave that is the end for UK and the EU - there will be no changing of minds and they have already indicated they will not look kindly on trading with UK. If we remain we have options still in the future. It is going through a tricky time but no one has said they think the EU is perfect but it is better than being on the outside.

Being able to chuck out leaders we don't like after their term in office. We cannot do that directly in the EU.

Democracy, in other words.

That was a positive for Brexit, btw.

People who pay tax - that would be everyone as you cannot live in this country without paying VAT. Many people who don't pay Income Tax (which you seem to be getting it down to GrandTea and Rose) still pay Council Tax as well as VAT.

Perhaps we should go back to excluding those who are not home owners. My paternal grandfather would not have had the vote because he did not own his own property - not so long ago. You could call it "getting back to basics" ... that would be sure too catch on. And then there are us pesky women. My grandmother did not have the vote in 1918 although she was 24. She was not a householder (she was married) and as she was not over 30 she would not have got the vote. She would have had to wait another ten years! Never mind that we have come so far in just two generations Lets go backwards,and start disenfranchising people. That might lead to riots, etc., but what the heck!

Who can we not chuck out? The president is elected every five years; our PM is chosen by his party, not elected as PM.
We elect MEPs by PR, which is a better way than FPTP. They can be chucked out every five years.
Lots of those who work in the EU are civil servants. We do not expect to chuck out civil servants here every five years, so why should we in Europe?

We don't always manage to rid of leaders after a term in office - democracy decrees that if others think they are OK. A number of posts in the EU are done for short periods only as all the countries take turns.

I have yet to see any good reason for leaving.

Interesting, Gracesgran. I have just been reading an article by 300 historians, who say that leaving the EU would condemn Britain to irrelevance.
Thinking about history, most of the history we were taught was about wars with Europe, or even further back, the Middle East.