Worrying situation

Sad to say but I think the lack of police reaction came from the Cologne Council. Cologne is a big tourist hub, this wouldn't go down well, would it?
I've read that hotel bookings are falling off a cliff.

It took several days to report this, thanks to digital spy and those who witnessed it. The German police of chief has been sacked.

x posts, petra - yes, I've read about the extent and degree of the attacks, violent and invasive, absolutely abhorrent.

I agree with what you say, WilmaK, and I also apologise unreservedly to petra for misinterpreting her post. She didn't say that many of us 'don't believe', but that we 'can't believe', which is obviously completely different.

Sorry, petra.

Ana. I see. I didn't put that clearly. I meant that some people couldn't accept how sexually violent the attacks were.

Ana I hate conspiracy theories which is why I didn't post my thoughts until tonight. It could just as easily be as you say, with the only organising being passing on the message of the plan. That's so simple these days and could account for the incidents in other countries being on a smaller scale. I hope it is this option.

Hopefully the result we see from the attacks being a crack down on antisocial behaviour described as the norm in Germany. But even then I feel a bit uneasy about in case it's taken to extremes.

At the end of the day the same standard of behaviour should be expected no matter what ethnic background is involved. In any UK city, a group of young men of the size in Cologne who were drinking and letting off fireworks or fire crackers would be dispersed - and definitely not allowed to regroup in the same location. I read earlier Cologne's approach to policing is 'softly softly'. That approach backfired and the top man has been removed. Fair enough. What will happen there next?

(your post of 20.42)

I know that many of you can't believe that these assaults have happened.

That's what you said, petra.

I didn't say that some people are denying these assaults never took place.
I was referring to their comments as to the severity of the assaults.

It certainly happened. I had first hand info from my friend who was there (in Hamburg). Does it have to be co ordinated? Large groups of disaffected young men + unaccustomed alcohol +lack of awareness of other cultures + lack of police = recipe for what happened.

I don't think anyone knows what's behind it but there are suggestions in some quarters that events in Cologne are the 'terrorist attack' that was threatened by Daesh. I'm fence sitting, don't feel I have enough information to reach a conclusion on that. It feels a bit more than gangs of disaffected youths going on a rampage though, it does feel there has been some kind of coordination and planning.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that many of us don't believe these assaults have happened, petra. Has anyone said that? Of course they happened - there's enough first-hand evidence, and why on earth would anyone make it up?

What I don't understand is the apparent conviction that some organisation must be behind it, i.e. Daesh or some right wing political party. Couldn't it just be gangs of disaffected youths going on the rampage?

The BBC is reporting that the head of Cologne's police force is leaving his post "to restore public trust in the police". The state interior minister has placed Wolfgang Albers in temporary retirement.

Mumsnet is certainly fired up for action, but I am not sure what it can do without the cooperation of other countries. Interesting.

There are lots of people on Mumsnet who have worked in Germany and are telling their stories as to how this behaviour has been going on for a long time.

I read this comment on another forum yesterday: It's very frightening when your own government can't protect you. Very scary.
I know that many of you can't believe that these assaults have happened. It doesn't surprise me at all. There are lots more shocks to come.

Have a look at mumsnet Ana - their discussion is interesting and seems well informed as well.

Do you really believe that some organisation is behind these attacks? I haven't heard it suggested anywhere else apart from on here.

That's why I said there's more to this than meets the eye. However, we should not jump to the conclusion that Da-esh is behind the attacks. It could just as easily be right wing political parties. We know that many of the men are known to the police in a criminal context which means they are likely to be willing to be paid for their services on New Year's Eve. Either achieve the same results.

Sorry petra - I must have x posted with you as I hadn't seen your post that appears just before mine in which I was responding to Nonnie who seemed to have made a gigantic leap between inappropriate behaviour by individuals in the 60's and the awful behaviour of large groups of men in Cologne.

I agree with you therefore, that to put these dreadful assaults in the same context as a shout of "fancy a **" is ridiculous and minimises what must have been a truly terrifying experience.

I saw the Swedish research you mention. From memory the research confirmed (as you'd expect) that where male immigrants from similar cultures to their female counterparts by large numbers, it has been established that sexual offences by those young men increases.

The whole of northern Europe needs to wake up to the potential difficulties. I was genuinely shocked that the (female) mayor of Cologne thought it reasonable and wise to issue guidance for women about keeping themselves safe in these situations. Not a single word of advice or guidance for the young men who behaved appallingly and committed offences. Shocked!

Iam64. Is it that some people have lived in such a bubble that they just don't understand what can happen in these situations?

There are reports of two rapes and of assaults that left women with serious bruises on their breasts and buttocks. To link that to an assault in the 60's by a DJ is totally ridiculous.

These serious sexual assaults were part of a criminal conspiracy it seems, with robbery just one element of the plan.

I read this this morning. Very good. Another part of this story is the way that these huge numbers of single young men is going to change the face of Europe. Sweden are already talking about this.

I have to say that I can't believe that someone is putting these horrendous assaults in the same context of some young lad shouting out ' fancy a s..g' or have I got that wrong?

There is an article in todays DM www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3389734/Why-Britain-worried-flood-young-male-migrants-Leader-lawyer-s-son-immigrants-gives-stark-warning.html The link title gives you a fair idea what it is about.

The author points out that a high proportion of the immigrants are young men on their own without other family members and many are young enough to be classed as children and the problems that will inevitably follow where you have large groups of young men on their own.

These attacks were organised and the men were in teams rather than groups. I think Stansgran has a point, there is more than one way of carrying out terrorist attacks and 'dishonouring 'kuffir' women' would be seen by the perpetrators as a way to destabilise the society they are now part of and at the same time show their contempt for both the women and the men who 'allow' them to have the freedoms they have.

A gang of forty men surrounding you as you walk along with husband and child and groping you intimately. Can't remember that happening very often in the sixties!

And Salzburg has been added to the list. I can't believe I'm reading this. Is this why one railway station was closed down previously to this? That the authorities thought a terrorist attack could only be a bomb not a mass attack on women.