Worrying situation

Well said,Stansgran.

Muslim culture does not consider it to be acceptable, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Aren't you being disingenuous to suggest otherwise? The same can be said of any culture in that not everyone follows the rules. My experience in Morocco the women who were groped were scantily dressed, for example wearing a bikini top and shorts in the street. Those women were not considered respectable and treated in a disrespectful way by some men, but not by most because the local people were too well mannered to do otherwise. Even though I was a young woman at the time, I would not wear a bikini top in the street, especially when I knew that it would be considered inappropriate by the local community. I was brought up to know better.

Like it or not, countries do have different standards of decency and we shouldn't expect them to adapt to ours.

What happened in Germany is unacceptable, but it is not clear what is behind the attacks. There is a lot to be considered, particularly regarding the Cologne incident where the police appear to have seriously misjudged the situation earlier in the evening. It is also possible the attacks were politically motivated and probably carried out by the same gangs of criminals who operate in the area at other times of the day.

I think there's more to this than meets the eye.

Over on Mumsnet this discussion runs into 32 pages, perhaps as younger women, many with adolescent/teenage daughters themselves they find the situation more alarming, but certainly the tone of the conversation over there is of anger. One poster made the point that she got fed up with the idea that women should be proficient in self defence, commenting along the lines that suggestion is the thin end of the wedge and a natural progression to promoting the attitude that women really shouldn't go out unaccompanied at night.

One woman posted about a recent nasty encounter she had when going to a concert in London, roads were shut off and taxi driver had to drop her, husband and daughter on Blackfriars Bridge which was very crowded although she had linked arms with husband and daughter she was also groped in a similar fashion to the young women in Cologne and from what she could make out her assailants were also of the same ethnicity as those in Cologne.

The overall consensus on the Mumsnet forum is that there is a deep disrespect of women in certain cultures and this is now being exported to Europe and that there is reticence to discuss these issues so as not to fan the flames. Hence the "women need to keep men at arms length" remark without any condemnation of the men who ARE the problem, the onus is being put on the women who are in an impossible situation.

petra why is it well said?

I am afraid that this is a situation that I had feared for women in Europe but have been afraid to voice. I have been following this story on the BBC news website where it had been far down the list of stories until a day or so ago. In Sweden reports of rapes and assults have reportedly risen as well as the story of the Libyan soldiers in Cambridge.I feel afraid.

The other thing that worries me is that while I agree that taking vunerable people from camps is a more sensible idea I wonder how the "system" will cope. Surely many children and young people arriving in this country will be very traumatised by there terrible experiences and will need expert therapies and counselling. These type of services for young people are difficult to get and often require youngsters being sent hundreds of miles to get help- although I am not sure if these would be the treatments needed by refuges.
Today I read on my local newspaper that 800 more foster families are urgently needed in Scotland and 7,600 in England, for children including unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. If these children can't speak English it will be even harder to help them.

Although I do take the point that people should dress modestly in a conservative country such as Morocco and be more respectful generally when abroad. I would add that I hate seeing pictures of young women staggering around drunk here with everything hanging out in our own country. I wish they would behave with more dignity.

Having said that I think many of the young women in Cologne were well covered in winter clothes.

Terribull have you read any of the news reports? There's plenty of condemnation of the men and this behaviour.

And I see no reticence to discuss the situation, quite the opposite. The idea that women should take precautions, etc. is being challenged by virtually everyone. I hope this doesn't stop.

Wilma perhaps I'm not up to date I think I read something yesterday that inferred that was the case. I'm glad that's wrong.

I find myself wondering that if the cultural differences are so enormous that these vile young men think that this kind of behaviour is acceptable where are we to go?

They know it's unacceptable. They just like doing it and that's what needs to be tackled.

Don't all men (and quite a few women ) like doing it though Wilma?

Why is it that we don't find European men acting like this? Is it because our culture deems it to be unacceptable behaviour?

gillybob it does happen most weekends all over the place in this country and is usually alcohol fueled. It's not organised like the German incidents, but they're unprecedented. You must have seen the photos of Manchester the other day?

blog

Many people are saying it's representative of the UK in the 21st century.

"They know it's unacceptable" - If they are asylum seekers, then it would suggest that they don't have any fear in being returned to their country of origin, as if caught, they also know that this behaviour would affect their asylum application. If they are already "settled" immigrants then they have not assimilated and are taking the piss out of their chosen adopted country which doesn't bode well for future relations.

Would agree that carousing drunk women with far too much exposed sends out mixed messages, but these assaults were on women dressed appropriately. Not that I think anyone should be assaulted if they are inappropriately dressed in the street, just that they should take more responsibility when they render themselves vulnerable.

I don't think the men involved are asylum seekers, more likely to be economic migrants (legal and illegal) and it's certainly a problem for the countries involved. Germany is not likely to stand for this kind of behaviour though. It is a very moral country in many ways.

If it happened here though, I am not sure how it would be handled by the establishment.

Terribull I agree these incidents were different in that the women were randomly targeted. Not all of the women were young either or on their own, some were with men. That's what makes me think there's something behind them and that it's not cut and dried.

Interesting article in the Times today about male:female inbalance in society and the rise in violence and crime. This has been documented in China for quite a time as a result of their 'one child policy'. Their ration is 117:100 male to female. A similar situation is emerging in India with an increase in crime, especially against women.

In Sweden, who has accepted more immigrants per head (x4 Germany) than any other European country 90% of unaccompanied teenage refugees were male, and in the registration centres across Europe the proportion of males to females is two thirds male.

This imbalance is apparently what leads to increased crime and violence, according to the experts.

PS that imbalance is unlikely to happen in the UK the article goes on to state due to Cameron's policy of only accepting the most vulnerable people from refugee camps, such as victims of torture and sexual exploitation, the elderly, the infirm and families. Canada too gas committed to accepting 25,000 Syrian refugees by the end of next month but is only accepting women, accompanied minors and families.

jane10 I'd just like to come back to come back to your comment about your friend not reporting the incident to the police.
I understand that she must have been very distressed, and that reliving the experience could be as distressing as the experience itself, but can we expect the police and the German government to do very much beyond increased street patrols and CCTV, without hard evidence with which to prosecute the perpetrators?

As the mother of a young woman I am incensed by some commentators that the responsibility lies with women, and that women are the ones who should be 'looking out' and taking care. I like to consider myself a liberal, fair minded person but this terrible situation in Germany is just the tip of the iceberg to my thinking and I consider it atrocious that people who have been given a home in another country, whether they are economic migrants, refugees due to political oppression or war, should then turn on their hosts in such a way. No amount of explaining by apologists can make this situation acceptable, and I am equally angry that the news would appear to have been suppressed, although I can understand why it has been. I surely cant be the only person who feels this way? At the risk of being inflammatory, I think that anyone who applies for sanctuary/citizenship in a European country and then commits a crime such as this, a crime which undermines the entire way we are able to live our lives, ie. freedom to walk out, freedom to be with friends without being molested, should be promptly repatriated to their country of origin. It has come to something when an old Guardian reader like me feels this way.

I know my friend should have reported it to the police. She's not a German speaker and the thought of hours trying to work through their system was daunting. She and her friend just concentrated on shortening their trip and getting home asap. She's not going back to Germany any time soon! Can't blame her.

Totally agree Gill

I also think if these individuals knew that this was the penalty no ifs ir buts the majority would modify their behaviour. When I consider what Sharia law, as an example, entails then we are being too damn soft

Somebody asked "what if it were to happen here" Just think what happened in Rochdale. That tells you everything you need to know.

GillT57 I agree with your post, but I don't understand the bit about suppressing the news. It hasn't been suppressed and has been updated on a a daily basis. I read about it online on both the BBC and Guardian websites.

The latest news is about a leaked police report saying the police were overwhelmed at the time of the incident. Questions are quite rightly being asked why the crowd of men was allowed to regather after being dispersed earlier in the evening.

Perhaps suppressed was too strong a word to use Wilmaknickersfit, what I really meant was it seemed to be slow to come to the front page, and is not first items on any news programmes, almost as if (understandably) Germany and other countries with far right groups were worried about any flashback reactions. I still stick by what I said though, one strike and you are out as far as I am concerned. As for the Libyan servicemen who were imprisoned after the serious sexual offences in Cambridgeshire, they should be deported as soon as their sentences are completed, put on a plane with no appeal. Their victims had no appeal. This applies to anyone from any country who commits a crime here.