Worrying situation

PS that imbalance is unlikely to happen in the UK the article goes on to state due to Cameron's policy of only accepting the most vulnerable people from refugee camps, such as victims of torture and sexual exploitation, the elderly, the infirm and families. Canada too gas committed to accepting 25,000 Syrian refugees by the end of next month but is only accepting women, accompanied minors and families.

Interesting article in the Times today about male:female inbalance in society and the rise in violence and crime. This has been documented in China for quite a time as a result of their 'one child policy'. Their ration is 117:100 male to female. A similar situation is emerging in India with an increase in crime, especially against women.

In Sweden, who has accepted more immigrants per head (x4 Germany) than any other European country 90% of unaccompanied teenage refugees were male, and in the registration centres across Europe the proportion of males to females is two thirds male.

This imbalance is apparently what leads to increased crime and violence, according to the experts.

Terribull I agree these incidents were different in that the women were randomly targeted. Not all of the women were young either or on their own, some were with men. That's what makes me think there's something behind them and that it's not cut and dried.

I don't think the men involved are asylum seekers, more likely to be economic migrants (legal and illegal) and it's certainly a problem for the countries involved. Germany is not likely to stand for this kind of behaviour though. It is a very moral country in many ways.

If it happened here though, I am not sure how it would be handled by the establishment.

Would agree that carousing drunk women with far too much exposed sends out mixed messages, but these assaults were on women dressed appropriately. Not that I think anyone should be assaulted if they are inappropriately dressed in the street, just that they should take more responsibility when they render themselves vulnerable.

"They know it's unacceptable" - If they are asylum seekers, then it would suggest that they don't have any fear in being returned to their country of origin, as if caught, they also know that this behaviour would affect their asylum application. If they are already "settled" immigrants then they have not assimilated and are taking the piss out of their chosen adopted country which doesn't bode well for future relations.

gillybob it does happen most weekends all over the place in this country and is usually alcohol fueled. It's not organised like the German incidents, but they're unprecedented. You must have seen the photos of Manchester the other day?

blog

Many people are saying it's representative of the UK in the 21st century.

Don't all men (and quite a few women ) like doing it though Wilma?

Why is it that we don't find European men acting like this? Is it because our culture deems it to be unacceptable behaviour?

They know it's unacceptable. They just like doing it and that's what needs to be tackled.

I find myself wondering that if the cultural differences are so enormous that these vile young men think that this kind of behaviour is acceptable where are we to go?

Wilma perhaps I'm not up to date I think I read something yesterday that inferred that was the case. I'm glad that's wrong.

Terribull have you read any of the news reports? There's plenty of condemnation of the men and this behaviour.

And I see no reticence to discuss the situation, quite the opposite. The idea that women should take precautions, etc. is being challenged by virtually everyone. I hope this doesn't stop.

Although I do take the point that people should dress modestly in a conservative country such as Morocco and be more respectful generally when abroad. I would add that I hate seeing pictures of young women staggering around drunk here with everything hanging out in our own country. I wish they would behave with more dignity.

Having said that I think many of the young women in Cologne were well covered in winter clothes.

I am afraid that this is a situation that I had feared for women in Europe but have been afraid to voice. I have been following this story on the BBC news website where it had been far down the list of stories until a day or so ago. In Sweden reports of rapes and assults have reportedly risen as well as the story of the Libyan soldiers in Cambridge.I feel afraid.

The other thing that worries me is that while I agree that taking vunerable people from camps is a more sensible idea I wonder how the "system" will cope. Surely many children and young people arriving in this country will be very traumatised by there terrible experiences and will need expert therapies and counselling. These type of services for young people are difficult to get and often require youngsters being sent hundreds of miles to get help- although I am not sure if these would be the treatments needed by refuges.
Today I read on my local newspaper that 800 more foster families are urgently needed in Scotland and 7,600 in England, for children including unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. If these children can't speak English it will be even harder to help them.

petra why is it well said?

Over on Mumsnet this discussion runs into 32 pages, perhaps as younger women, many with adolescent/teenage daughters themselves they find the situation more alarming, but certainly the tone of the conversation over there is of anger. One poster made the point that she got fed up with the idea that women should be proficient in self defence, commenting along the lines that suggestion is the thin end of the wedge and a natural progression to promoting the attitude that women really shouldn't go out unaccompanied at night.

One woman posted about a recent nasty encounter she had when going to a concert in London, roads were shut off and taxi driver had to drop her, husband and daughter on Blackfriars Bridge which was very crowded although she had linked arms with husband and daughter she was also groped in a similar fashion to the young women in Cologne and from what she could make out her assailants were also of the same ethnicity as those in Cologne.

The overall consensus on the Mumsnet forum is that there is a deep disrespect of women in certain cultures and this is now being exported to Europe and that there is reticence to discuss these issues so as not to fan the flames. Hence the "women need to keep men at arms length" remark without any condemnation of the men who ARE the problem, the onus is being put on the women who are in an impossible situation.

Muslim culture does not consider it to be acceptable, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Aren't you being disingenuous to suggest otherwise? The same can be said of any culture in that not everyone follows the rules. My experience in Morocco the women who were groped were scantily dressed, for example wearing a bikini top and shorts in the street. Those women were not considered respectable and treated in a disrespectful way by some men, but not by most because the local people were too well mannered to do otherwise. Even though I was a young woman at the time, I would not wear a bikini top in the street, especially when I knew that it would be considered inappropriate by the local community. I was brought up to know better.

Like it or not, countries do have different standards of decency and we shouldn't expect them to adapt to ours.

What happened in Germany is unacceptable, but it is not clear what is behind the attacks. There is a lot to be considered, particularly regarding the Cologne incident where the police appear to have seriously misjudged the situation earlier in the evening. It is also possible the attacks were politically motivated and probably carried out by the same gangs of criminals who operate in the area at other times of the day.

I think there's more to this than meets the eye.

Well said,Stansgran.

@ Wilma how can one respect a culture where it is acceptable to grope women?

The female mayor of Cologne was responsible for the comment "keep men at arms length", just how women were supposed to do that when they are being purposely tripped up, groped around the crotch, breasts etc., she didn't eludicate. It beggars belief that her comments were aimed at the women of Germany and not the men who have carried out the assaults, and as yet, we only know they are of Arab appearance and not whether they are incoming asylum seekers. Whoever they are they besmirch the reputation of all those who have come to Europe fleeing conflict and just wish to live in peace. If however they are asylum seekers then to behave in such a manner to the people of the host country is a good enough reason to have them deported back from whence they came, because clearly they don't value being given a safe haven. The report I read in The Times yesterday on this matter was very graphic and suggested that some women had been assaulted in a very invasive way and at least one had been raped.

A while ago a group of Libyan soldiers came over to the Cambridge area for training and whilst out of their barracks they again went on a drink fueled groping session of the local women. A couple are now in jail for raping a man in a park, and predictably they are applying for asylum here once they come out.

Germany is going to have to get to grips with this situation if they are not to alienate their citizens and fuel the far right.

Tension over handling of assaults

Protests in Cologne

petra Morocco was like that when I was there in the 80s, so it's nothing new. Single women need to use common sense and we were told as much by our tour rep at the welcome talk. It's a Muslim country, as is Tunisia and the culture should be respected.

From what I've read the attacks on New Year's Eve were organised and took place in several locations in Germany. Few if any arrests have been made to date, basically because the police were taken unawares and the men had left the area by the time the police realised what had happened. The police have got descriptions of some of the men and are looking for them, so Jane10 tell your friend it's still worth reporting what happened. One woman was raped and others were groped. There's been rallies in support of women being able to walk around at night in safety.

The incidents are being called a new type of crime.

Sorry the above should have read: This was when wearing a full Burkha. Not a Hijab.

I have a Muslim friend who told me women were lucky in this country that they could go about their business in relative peace and safety. I was told also that when she goes abroad to visit her family,women shopping in the market are groped all the time. This is when wearing a full Hijab, not Western clothing. For obvious reasons I do not wish to name the country but she stated there is a massive cultural difference in male attitudes to women where her family originally came from.

I'm afraid Merkel is reaping what she has sowed. I even heard some idiot woman on German TV advising German women to 'keep men at arms length'. So, you live in your country all your life with no bother but now YOU have to change your ways and accept the responsibility for guys that cannot keep their hands to themselves? If they came near me they would lose their hands and possibly another part of their anatomy............ The German authorities should be stamping on this right now, because if they don't German men may decide they will not put up with this type of treatment of wives, sisters, daughters and end up taking the law into their own hands, which will end in utter mayhem.

Invincible Stansgran!