Worrying situation

I get the impression that it's more than 'some', it seems rife. It's very depressing.

Well, I think it did on the whole Ana, but it is rather that some young women have interpreted freedom in a different way from that envisaged by the first wave of feminists.

I agree, jane, it's very strange. In the 60s and 70s misogyny and sexism was certainly alive and well, but in the main it was contained and restricted within the social habits of the time. Men were expected to be polite and deferential to women, at least in public, and most of them were.

These days, despite men and women being supposedly 'equal', a rather horrible backlash seems to have come about, with young women flaunting their sexuality on social media sites (why?) and men (and boys)assuming that if it's on offer, why shouldn't they go for it?

I'm sorry, but I think the feminist movement didn't actually do most women any favours.

terribull we live in a time when some women willingly objectify themselves through social media quite happily Libby Purves made this point in the Times the other day (can't do a link because of the paywall) when she was writing about the apparent loss of self-respect among young women of today and its replacement with self-esteem, which she described as being characterised by a sense of entitlement and victimisation.
I was at university in the late 60s and early 70s and whilst I certainly remember sexist and inappropriate behaviour on the part of some teachers directed at some students, the men students I came across behaved entirely properly!
I do wonder when and why this mysogynist behaviour described in the articles eloethan quoted, which I don't doubt, started, and how it originated.

We would not , or at least I would hope not, show leniency or understanding if these attacks were/had been carried out by young men in this country because there is nothing , Nada, zilch that can go any way to mitigate the reported rape /physical abuse which was carried out on what appears to be on an unprecedented scale , by such a large number of men.

I have been watching the coverage of this on Aljazeera and RT Today over the past few days and eventually it was picked up by or media outlets. The film shown on both of these channels is quite frightening and a wake up call.

Merkel has said "The assaults touch on the coexistence of cultures" and she urged authorities to ensure that "everything is brought to light" in their investigations.

She goes on, "The events there (Cologne) raise very serious questions that go beyond Cologne whether they are connections, common patterns of behaviour and is there something like contempt for women among certain groups". "We'll need to examine whether we've done everything that's needed in terms of 'expulsions' from Germany so we send a clear signal to those who aren't willing to obey our legal standards".

The numbers involved gave them the arrogance to carry out these attacks , even when females were accompanied by males, they taunted their immigrant status and this will only add fuel to the fire and if you can watch the actual recordings it is an eye opener .

These various articles are truly horrific and I am not trying to minimise them at all. Sadly misogyny seems to be alive and kicking on university campuses these days and possibly even encouraged. However there are occasions when young women do not take enough responsibility for their own behaviour. How many times have students on pub crawls been photographed legless with very little on. The boozed up reveller story in Magaluf, is particularly horrible and it's regrettable that some of the basest aspects of British culture are exported to other countries.

In spite of the assumption that we live in a more egalitarian and equal society in Europe, in many respects things are worse for women then they ever were. I remember as a young 20 something in the '70s, a deeply sexist time, when page 3 was in its infancy and male colleagues in the office where I worked delighted in overtly slobbering over that sort of thing which I and other female colleagues found offensive and demeaning. Whilst we consider we have moved on and all those topless pinup/Playboy Bunny girl stuff seem hackneyed now, from the extracts that you have highlighted eloethan, it seems women are still treated, if anything, in a more sexist way than ever. Nevertheless, we live in a time when some women willingly objectify themselves through social media quite happily and of course the vilest pornography has been viewed by young men, apparently from early teens which clearly seem to affect their attitudes towards the opposite sex.

The assaults in Cologne and other cities was something different altogether, I have since read in the Telegraph that a group of men being held, are in fact newly arrived asylum seekers and therefore not living on the fringes, although no doubt in the overall number of 1,000 or more some will be. The article did seem to imply that there had been something of a cover up by the police allegedly. There should be no excuse for the mens' behaviour and I hope, if they are asylum seekers, they will be deported to send out a clear message. Not only do they insult the women of Germany but they besmirch the reputation of all those men who have come to Europe to escape terror and to live in peace.

Good article, thatbags. We need all our men, of any background, to be prepared to stand up for women to have the same freedom to go about as men do and to make it clear to those who are not used to that, that this is how things work in western societies. I agree that those who break the law should be refused leave to remain unless they are prepared to change their behaviour permanently.

There was an interview in this week's Sunday Herald with a Syrian refugee family in Paisley. They are very happy to be here and say that even the rain falls more gently than in Syria (they will get plenty of opportunity to experience that ). They appreciate the welcome they have had from the local people, and the man mentioned a conversation he had had with a local woman who ended up by giving him a hug. He said it surprised him, as it couldn't have happened in Syria, but he realised that it was quite acceptable for her and was just a friendly gesture, and he took it in that spirit. However, he said that he then went straight home and told his wife about it in case she got the wrong idea! That family cannot be the only one whose members are trying hard to fit in and either make a life here or wait until there is a possibility that they can go home again.

Somebody on here asked: "Why is it that we don't find European men acting like this? Is it because our culture deems it to be unacceptable behaviour?"

What happened in Cologne is obviously disgusting but, as the gentleman in the article pointed out, many of these men live on the edges of society and are rootless, ill-educated and often involved in drug running and other criminality. Contrast that with the more privileged and supposedly better educated men referred to in these reports and it seems to me that some men - of whatever background - will use certain situations as an opportunity to assault women.

Telegraph January 2015

"The Telegraph’s survey has found that one in three women experience sexual assault while at university. It speaks of a world where 18-year-olds go to college parties and expect to be sexually touched without their consent, where student nightclubs and sporting groups casually refer to sexual violence in their party themes and where university leaders continue to turn their backs on the widespread misogyny and assault that is happening under their noses. One form of sexual assault – where a man puts his a hand under a woman's dress or skirt – is so common on today's student nights that it's gained its own name: “underhanding”."

The Cambridge Student April 2014

"A survey by CUSU Women’s Campaign and Varsity Newspaper has revealed shocking statistics on sexual assault in Cambridge, with 28.5% of respondents having been sexually assaulted and a further 3% being subjected to assault by penetration......

".....Night clubs were the most common place for sexual harassment to occur and one respondent said: “I have been sexually assaulted so much in clubs I am afraid to go to them, and now in non-club venues (such as gigs) I now feel a little paranoid due to past club experiences.”

"The survey showed that both male and female students were at risk of sexual assault. However, 91% of perpetrators were male, showing the heavily gendered nature of such incidents. From these statistics, 50% of perpetrators were known to the victim and 10 of these were cited as members of academic staff.

The Independent November 2013

"Members of Stirling University’s hockey team are facing severe criticism after a video emerged of them singing highly sexist and offensive chants on a public bus – watched by an elected member of Stirling’s student union....

"Speaking to the Independent a passenger on the bus, who wishes to remain anonymous, said: “It’s beyond intimidation, it is humiliation.”

"They continued: “The atmosphere in the bus was incredibly tense, people were muttering and were clearly disgusted but it’s incredibly intimidating to say anything to a big group.”

"Other passengers on the bus can be heard complaining quietly in the background, with one saying: “that is quite scary.”

The Mirror July 2013

"A TEENAGER has told how she was gang-raped on stage at a holiday hotspot nightclub in front of hundreds of boozed-up ­revellers.

"Barmaid Lauren Walsh was 17 and on her first holiday without her parents when she says a group of British men attacked her during a raucous foam party at a club in Magaluf, Majorca.

"Separated from her friends, she was stripped naked, raped and sexually assaulted in the packed nightclub, where the music was too loud for her screams to be heard. None of the hundreds of clubbers there noticed her distress until it was too late.

"Lauren, now 19, was not drunk and had only had a couple of cocktails before switching to water......

As for mob violence:

"A student pub crawl [in Colchester] descended into a mass "disturbance" involving about 300 people and leaving three injured, police said.

"The Rampage event was advertised online as the biggest student organised pub crawl in the town." (Oct 2015)

I liked the article too bags. I don't think there was anything wrong with putting the violence in Cologne and Hamburg into a wider context.

Should have said, it's not a 'difficulty'

No, it's not a pity. They need to learn about Western laws. They are grown people. They are capable of putting the past behind them.

That article really does go off on a tangent partway through, about a subject that has nothing to do with the sex attacks. How many of those attacks were carried out by white men? None that have been reported so far as I know. So why does the author try to be inclusive of all men?

My point really is the absence of work for asylum seekers all over Europe. The fact that many of the African asylum seekers/economic migrants come from war torn countries where they have probably been exposed to the kind of things that lead to PTSD/drug use. It's a real difficulty isn't it.

So did I thatbags.
I visited Berlin for the first time in the autumn and loved the city. The only time we felt in any way uneasy was during a walk back to our hotel, through one of the big parks. The entrances were all dominated by large groups of young black men, who seemed to be of African origin and probably asylum seekers or economic migrants. There was open drug dealing and as we entered the park, we were surrounded in a threatening manner then followed by several men. I was hugely relived not to be on my own, or with another woman but with my (very tall and large) husband.

I realise this post may seem inflammatory and I apologise for that but it seems to follow on from the link thatbags gave.

I liked the article you posted thatbags.

Not impressed by that article as it seemed to be more about the poor status of black men in Germany. How is that relevant? What about the subject under discussion. Typical 'poor me' man trick (of whatever culture or colour) .

Reminiscent of an article I read recently, ostensibly about domestic violence but from the tone of it you'd have thought that 98% of the victims were men.

When I have been in Muslim countries I have always dressed appropriately and even did so when in the Iranian Embassy as it is surely only a matter or courtesy. Why is it that people who flee their own countries (if these are the perpetrators) because life is unbearable are not grateful to the countries that take them in? Why have we seen this behaviour and also riots at entry points and apparently an assumption that they have a right to live in Europe? Yes, I know it is not all of them, it looks to me as if it is mainly young men but some appear not to appreciate the help they are given and seem to assume they can live as they like. If they were more inclined to integrate and attempt to understand how Europeans live would they find more people would welcome them?

Perhaps this sounds like I don't want to help, I do and I have, I just find the attitude of some difficult to understand.

This is a good article about the situation in Cologne, and what to do about it, written "by a black man of African descent living in Germany". The bit in quotes is by JK Rowling.

Perhaps suppressed was too strong a word to use Wilmaknickersfit, what I really meant was it seemed to be slow to come to the front page, and is not first items on any news programmes, almost as if (understandably) Germany and other countries with far right groups were worried about any flashback reactions. I still stick by what I said though, one strike and you are out as far as I am concerned. As for the Libyan servicemen who were imprisoned after the serious sexual offences in Cambridgeshire, they should be deported as soon as their sentences are completed, put on a plane with no appeal. Their victims had no appeal. This applies to anyone from any country who commits a crime here.

GillT57 I agree with your post, but I don't understand the bit about suppressing the news. It hasn't been suppressed and has been updated on a a daily basis. I read about it online on both the BBC and Guardian websites.

The latest news is about a leaked police report saying the police were overwhelmed at the time of the incident. Questions are quite rightly being asked why the crowd of men was allowed to regather after being dispersed earlier in the evening.

Somebody asked "what if it were to happen here" Just think what happened in Rochdale. That tells you everything you need to know.

Totally agree Gill

I also think if these individuals knew that this was the penalty no ifs ir buts the majority would modify their behaviour. When I consider what Sharia law, as an example, entails then we are being too damn soft

I know my friend should have reported it to the police. She's not a German speaker and the thought of hours trying to work through their system was daunting. She and her friend just concentrated on shortening their trip and getting home asap. She's not going back to Germany any time soon! Can't blame her.

As the mother of a young woman I am incensed by some commentators that the responsibility lies with women, and that women are the ones who should be 'looking out' and taking care. I like to consider myself a liberal, fair minded person but this terrible situation in Germany is just the tip of the iceberg to my thinking and I consider it atrocious that people who have been given a home in another country, whether they are economic migrants, refugees due to political oppression or war, should then turn on their hosts in such a way. No amount of explaining by apologists can make this situation acceptable, and I am equally angry that the news would appear to have been suppressed, although I can understand why it has been. I surely cant be the only person who feels this way? At the risk of being inflammatory, I think that anyone who applies for sanctuary/citizenship in a European country and then commits a crime such as this, a crime which undermines the entire way we are able to live our lives, ie. freedom to walk out, freedom to be with friends without being molested, should be promptly repatriated to their country of origin. It has come to something when an old Guardian reader like me feels this way.

jane10 I'd just like to come back to come back to your comment about your friend not reporting the incident to the police.
I understand that she must have been very distressed, and that reliving the experience could be as distressing as the experience itself, but can we expect the police and the German government to do very much beyond increased street patrols and CCTV, without hard evidence with which to prosecute the perpetrators?