How poor is poor?

Greenfinch Yes I thinks it must be much more enjoyable for mums to meet up at a local kid friendly cafe. I remember taking it in turns with other mums to visit our houses. It wasn't a lot of fun as I recall. Much nicer to be out in the real everyday world.

I don't think you can always believe all those statistics. Having been self-employed for 20+ years I can say that I have never earned the "typical" income of less than £10k, which of course proves what everybody here is saying - income alone is no indicator of riches or poverty, as outgoings and circumstances are so different for everyone.

It also depends on the type of self-employment, of course, as a self-comployed window cleaner is a world away from a self-employed entrepreneur.

Income alone isn't a true indicator, it would depend where you lived in the UK, how much rent or mortgage you were paying (if you still had one) If you had any dependents.

Also if you had any savings.

I agree with Riverwalk, pensioners are better off than some young families.
I know of lots of young earners in London that are on much higher wages than £24,000 and can't afford to buy a property or rent anywhere close to their place of work. Commuting therefore eats into their income.

£240k

Gggrrr! Wish there was an 'edit' facility!

Sorry! I meant "If ten people earn a total of £24k...."

(£15,555 x 9) + £100,000 = £240,000.

I get quite angry when people say that £24k is the national average income. It isn't! It's the mean income and is skewed by people who earn considerably more than £24k. If ten people earn a total of £24k, but one person earns £100k, nine people earn around £15.5k.

What this means is that people say that they cope very well on much less than the national average, so everybody should be able to cope, so we have a situation of poverty denial.

Median income in the UK is around £18.5k. That means that half of the population has an income higher than £18.5 and half are below.

Below £18.5k there is still quite a wide range with some people having an earned income below £10k, which is a typical income for the self-employed.

Organisations such as the Joseph Rowntree Trust have rates for absolute poverty, which means not being able to afford basics such as heating, nutritious food, clothes, essential bills (water, council tax) communication (phone, internet), transport, etc The rates are divided into before and after housing costs.

There are approximately 4 million people in the UK who live in absolute poverty. No matter how they allocate their money, they don't have enough to make safe choices, so end up paying for heating and not food, etc. If there is more than one person in a household, a choice can be made to feed some of the people properly, but not others, which is why some single parents end up feeding and clothing their children relatively well, but not themselves.

it's a bit like judging a fish by it's ability to climb a tree, it will grow up thinking it's stupid. Similarly , if we are trained to think we are 'poor' compared with other people even though we do actually have enough that's the way our thinking will go. Some of the poorest (by our standards) children in India are happier then many well off kids in Britain.

Why shouldn't expectations be higher now?
I expect my kids to be better off than we were and to have more things. It's called progress, as jingl says.

When I was a young Mum I used to invite friends with their children to my house for coffee and the children could run around and play with the toys. My DiL meets her friends in a coffee shop and the children stay in their pushchairs. Meanwhile their houses stay in pristine condition. Is this progress ?

Yes OlderNoWiser, I remember the ice on the inside of the window frames, metal frames, in a prefabricated bungalow after the War. Chilblains on hands and feet travelling on the bus. We also lived on rations, 4 oz meat per week. My Dad was sick with a TB Kidney and because he would be off work a long time was sacked. I saw my Mum crying and there were only two of us children. We always ate well as my Mum could make things stretch. In fact cooking from scratch was the answer. I am 76 now and on less than £24,000 half of that in fact.

While my Dad was sick my Mum got a part time job in a café and met the Manager from the "Labour Exchange" having his lunch. She asked if there were any jobs for my Dad, a new factory was being built and even though Dad's was recovering from a major operation he was taken on. He was there until he retired. My Dad was brought up in an orphanage from 6 years of age. He always did his best for us and made sure we had a good child hood.

I do think younger people today have no idea how we lived then and therefore think they are poor.

They don't "think" they are poor. Many of them are. Why do you think food banks exist?

Do you want them to sit at home by themselves and be miserable on their own?

Let the past go.

Do not knock young mums having a bit of pleasure outside the home. This is the twenty first century. Live in the present for goodness sake. It's called progress.

And Marieeliz.
It is really interesting hearing about these life stories..

Well said Bijou. Expectations are very high now.

Yes OlderNoWiser, I remember the ice on the inside of the window frames, metal frames, in a prefabricated bungalow after the War. Chilblains on hands and feet travelling on the bus. We also lived on rations, 4 oz meat per week. My Dad was sick with a TB Kidney and because he would be off work a long time was sacked. I saw my Mum crying and there were only two of us children. We always ate well as my Mum could make things stretch. In fact cooking from scratch was the answer. I am 76 now and on less than £24,000 half of that in fact.

While my Dad was sick my Mum got a part time job in a café and met the Manager from the "Labour Exchange" having his lunch. She asked if there were any jobs for my Dad, a new factory was being built and even though Dad's was recovering from a major operation he was taken on. He was there until he retired. My Dad was brought up in an orphanage from 6 years of age. He always did his best for us and made sure we had a good child hood.

I do think younger people today have no idea how we lived then and therefore think they are poor.

During my lifetime (I am 92) standards have changed. In the 30s only the rich had household appliances now they are considered essential. When I was first married after 4 years in the WAAF we lived in an attic room and my knuckles were sore from scrubbing nappies on a washboard. Saved up to buy a radio.
I think,a lot of pensioners are "poor" because they are too proud to apply for benefits. I own my bungalow and have a good standard of living thanks to pension guarantee credit and lower rate attendance allowance enabling me to employ daily help and have never been in debt all my life.

The coffee shops are full of young mums complaining they are short of money but have shopping bags of clothes. I Take my drink with me when going to town. £5 for a coffee and muffin buys a lot of veg.

18 months ago I was put onto Universal Credit. Due to a mix up with coming off ESA I had no money for 7 weeks. I got a loan off the social of £153 during this time which paid for food and electricity but obviously not my bills (such as rent ) I had to ask my 23yr old son to move in with his Dad which broke my heart. When I finally got Universal Credit I was left with £250 per month. Of this £110 went on the dreaded Bedroom Tax leaving me with £140 a month to pay my bills, buy electric (I have pre-payment meters and luckily it was summer so could manage without gas)and food. My son helped me out though he was on JSA.

Now I receive disability benefits I feel rich. I have no debt apart from rent. I still dread any of the white appliances dying but will buy 2nd hand when that happens. I can now afford to visit my other son who lives 200 miles away occasionally and see my 4yr old Grandson.

As a child I never considered 'us ' poor. I was an only child my father worked for British Rail, we lived in a council house. Until I started junior school my mother never worked. Then she got a job as a dinner lady so she had the holidays off. In the winter the fire wasn't lit until my father was due home. If it got really cold ( 1960 s) we went to bed in the afternoon. I slept at night with coats on the bed as extra blankets. We collected wood for the fire and can remember having bone stew ! ( Bones that have some meat on which we ate and the bones went on another plate on the table ) Did anyone else remember having that ?

I think that the £24.000 is just a marker for statistical purposes. One is judged too often on what one has or does not possess by others about others. It is all rather pathetic really.
As long as those who genuinely need help get it for the right reasons that should be all that matters. Sadly this doesnot always happen and it gets into the wrong hands.
We all require enough to be able to live but it is very relative to each and everyone of us as to what that amount is.
A very Happy New Year to you all.

We moved back to the UK, after 11 years and three young children, from Africa. Right into the 1980s depression. While we were never "rich" in Africa, we were surprised as how hard it was in the UK. The children all had second-hand clothes, and new shoes were always going to be a problem. We both worked, me during the school hours. After four months, my husband was given notice under the 'last in, first out' rule. We spent four miserable months trying to just exist, until he found another job. We were unaware that we could have got free school meals, help with the running of the house, etc. We all had second-hand bikes, saving a fortune on the buses. Eventually, we set up working for ourselves which would, surprisingly, make things easier financially because we could work with an overdraft, although my running joke has always been that the interest we paid on this overdraft meant the bankers always had a much better cost of living than we ever did! We worked like this for 17 years, before our type of work moved over to other countries and we were unable to keep up with the constantlg moving technology. This time, we quickly found jobs as the culture had changed somewhat from our earlied years. Now both retired, we aren't flush, but not poor either. I feel desperately sorry for people who are forced to live on very little as we have been there. It's time to start thinking about helping our own in this country and give our youngsters, in particular, a chance for a better future. None of my children were able to go to university through lack of money. It has been a struggle for them too, although all now have jobs but constantly moan about the cost of living and worry about the future for their own children.

I live on a very limited income and my daily paper round is really useful; all 3 in the household are registered disabled, but I may lose my DLA any day (was assessed for PIPs a couple of days before Xmas). I'd love to give up my paper round, but if they decide I don't qualify for PIPs, can't afford to. That said, I'm a saver rather than a spender and if I need something, I'll do without until I've saved up. But when the kids were small, it was genuinely a question of whether to pay the rent, buy them clothes or feed them (more than once we went without food so that they could eat). When MIL goes, we'll inherit her house and a fair amount in savings, but for now, we manage comfortably; all bills are paid on time, we eat healthily and have a nice little nest egg. So no, don't see us as " poor".

Our joint household income just touches £14,000.
In our previous rented house we lived without hot water or heating for 7 years. [We moved in Summer 2012 and are thrilled to have hot water now.]

I cannot get there these days, but car boot sales are cheaper than charity shops, and jumble sales are much cheaper than car boot sales.

Because we are no longer living in the old house, long story short, I do not qualify for any care. At the moment I can still just about haul myself from my bed into the wheelchair to get to the bathroom and back again. I have progressive MS, which has paralysed my entire left side and given me a heart condition and double vision.
And I had breast cancer which [after a mastectomy and axillary node dissection] has given me osteoporosis - from the hormone-suppression tablets I have to take daily for five years - and the tablets for that have given me diabetes.
I also have severe osteo-arthritis, which means I cannot walk a single step or even stand for a moment, and I am confined to a hospital-style-bed or an electric wheelchair - on loan from the NHS/ Social Services.

We last took the children [both now in their 20s] on holiday in 2000.

I do not think we live in poverty, nor do I feel particularly poor. We do not smoke or drink but we do have a laptop computer and a television and an ancient car [even if I can no longer get into or out of a car!].

BIL and his wife live next door. They have a joint income rather in excess of £60,000 and are always claiming poverty. They have a nice car each, and so do their children, they chain smoke and drink a bottle of wine a night each, and I cannot remember them having fewer than six family holidays abroad - every year - in all the time I have known them. They went every school holiday and every half term to Europe or the Caribbean, etc..

Because them-next-door always [frequently and loudly] claim poverty, dh's family think that by comparison we must be living in riches, even though they have just bought a house - from savings - without needing a mortgage.

We have no mortgage and no savings but no debts.
BIL once told me their credit card bill was more than 6 figures.

I suppose it is a matter of perception, but luckily I am one of the happiest people I know, . I am always thankful for what I have, rather than sore for what I do not have. The CAB tell me I cannot get care without paying for it, and we have all the benefits we are entitled to claim. I am trying to stay as fit as I can as I cannot think how we would pay for care for me.

When poverty is just a matter of perspective, I would suggest it is not poverty...

There is the grinding poverty of people who live in countries with no Welfare State/pensions/benefits/free education/free health service etc and there is poverty in countries like the UK which is a very different matter.

we have very low income, far less than the average, however, we are asset rich so not really poor. trying to live within our means. though we have started the year with a big outlay to replace white goods. I doubt we will live within our means this year.

I found the courage to leave my partner after 27 years so I now find
myself just scraping by I pay 500 a month in rent now (he kept the house) I have just over £900 a month in wages so I consider myself as fairly poor yet I couldn't be more content and at peace with myself money doesn't buy happiness it's taken me a long time to realise this.