Cannot believe this bigotry

I think it's important to distinguish between criticism of practices and criticism of people who belong to groups where the practices are common (or at least, not uncommon).

There is pressure on British and American girls with Hindu parents to enter arranged marriages. DD has such a friend. The girl does not want to marry someone her parents choose. She's only eighteen, is very ambitious academically, and isn't even sure yet whether she wants to marry anyone. She thinks her only option is to be defiant and thus to be disowned by her family. That's pretty appalling, I think. What a thing to have hanging over you when you are a young woman!

Of course, it's not so long ago since this, or something similar, was quite common in Britain.

Jane10, there has no mention of this in the press or on the news , are you claiming the police are ignoring this and no arrests have been made ?

I have never seen a 13 year old Christian girl married to a learning disabled man. Regrettably I have seen this on several occasions in Muslim families. Recently too. Not nice. Not common outwith Islam in UK.

I'm sorry, I can't do links otherwise I'd link an article in the telegraph today about an inter faith conference at which Justin Welby and senior Muslim clerics spoke about the fear, abuse and intimidation many Muslims experience in Britain today.

It's a sad fact that the sexual abuse and exploitation of children and vulnerable adults has been found in every society since time began. I'm not defending or minimising the organised abuse of children that Petra refers to, but it isn't confined to a group of Asian men.

Are they heathens? I thought they did it in the name of their religion.

I think one of the agencies, working on protecting these girls estimate at least 8,000 forced marriages a year. Are you insinuating at these brave women are lying, and why do you seem to be defending these barbaric heathens, because that's what someone is who would kill their own child to save face.

If you are referring to my previous post, Rotherham springs to mind.
Have a look at the programme that was on channel 4 Wednesday night.
The police uncovered papers that showed 11 young people from one family were in danger of being taken out of the country to be married. 11 child protection orders were made on them.

.petra, where in the UK do English, Scots, Welsh or Irish families have arrange / forced marriages ?

Well said granjura

Quote:

I wonder if Muslims also make jokes against themselves.

Some do, some don't. Again, and again, it is impossible to use the term 'Muslims' just like it is not possible to use the term 'Christian' - as they come in all guises, and the cultural influence is much much stronger oftern than the religious one. My Muslim realtives live in Australia, Tasmania, South Africa and Indonesia- and the women are free, successful and very well integrated into their local society, as well as sincere and practising Muslims. There is no such thing as your average 'Muslim' or 'Christian'. A large % of Christians in the USA are creationists and not like our average Anglican- who themselves cover a huge range, including very traditional High Church and Low Church protestants.

I would not assume that connection, petra, not saying never the case, but I think it is closer to the truth that a large proportion of child abusers were themselves abused as children or brought up in dysfunctional, abusive relationship. Sadly, child abuse, like sexual abuse of women, has been around for a very long time.

I would hazard a guess and say that most of the pond life convicted of child abuse were in arranged/ forced marriages.

Being half Jewish I grew up amongst Jewish people. My father's family was orthodox, not 'ultra', but he still married a Christian. Judaism in England has changed considerably during my lifetime. They too had arranged marriages when I was a child and men were separated from women in the synagogue.
In liberal synagogues however they are not segregated and there are quite a few female rabbis.
Jews are quite good at adapting as they historically have had to be. Muslims, being historically the conquerors haven't, so it remains to be seen whether or not they will. Maybe given time.
Fortunately, in a Jewish home liberal or orthodox the boss is invariably the mother. Hence the plethora of Jewish mother jokes. I wonder if Muslims also make jokes against themselves.

Well, it doesn't seem as though the custom of arranged marriages is going to die out among those who practise it any time soon.

Yes we have POGS , people do move on as history shows , even the windsors seemed to have stopped arranged marriages and that was after the eighties

Maybe but aren't those days behind us now?

We have moved on Anniebach .

No different to all the shotgun marriages prior to the sixties POGS, with the exception of a pregnancy

The problem is knowing whether or not both parties in an 'arranged' marriage agreed willingly to the marriage.

An arranged marriage may well be forced upon one of the couple but how would anybody know? There are both male and females who are too scared of their families and 'bringing shame' on their parents they just simply go ahead and get married. They are 'forced' into an 'arranged' marriage.

Arranged marriages are fine if and when both parties have a mutual desire to undertake this cultural way of marriage, but you, I, nobody knows how many of those who have undertaken to do so were bullied, obliged , scared to say 'no' do we?

This happens.

Do not confuse "arranged" marriages with forced arranged marriages. There is a big difference and both take place. Some cultures do go for arranged marriages where there is choice. That is usually about making introductions via perhaps family and friends.

Iam64. That's interesting. Would you say that it is the Muslims distancing themselves from non Muslims or visa versa.

An arranged marriage involves both bride and groom it is worth remembering. I had a young Muslim man as a student for his final teaching practice. A very fine teacher, called Mr Hussein, during the first Iraq war which caused a touch of concern initially with my Y6 class.

He shocked us all in the staff room by talking about his forthcoming marriage to a young woman he had only met twice, but whom he had liked and agreed to marry. It was clear that this young woman, a law student, was also agreeable to marrying under these terms.

My experience living in an an area with a large Pakistani myslim community and working with colleagues from that community is that the separation that wilmak talks about has increased.

Eloethan I don't object to the opinions of others at all and I do think I have misunderstood who was being addressed. I didn't realise you were referring to petra's post and I will admit I am frustrated at the lack of response about segregation. I want to understand more about how this works with the law in the UK. As I said earlier I feel conflicted and confused about this and until your reply, no one has responded about the segregation issue.

Re the Beth Din system, I thought the problem of the imbalance between men and women had been resolved by UK case law in 2012. After reading the article you posted I can understand this might not be the case. In the past in both Muslim and Jewish communities, sometimes the civil marriage did not take place, only the religious ceremony, meaning that there was no legal marriage. The common practice now is the civil marriage must take place before the mosque or synagogue will agree to the religious ceremony. This doesn't help the women who were married without a civil marriage and they are in limbo. It is a dreadful situation for the families.

Wilma I was referring to petra's comment where she said that she does not believe arranged marriages should be seen as acceptable in the UK. I was pointing out that forced marriages are, of course, illegal but arranged marriages are not and - in my opinion - nor should they be.

With regard to your claim that the Beth Din system does not disadvantage women in any way, Rahil Gupta wrote an article in Open Democracy in which she argued against any quasi-legal religious systems that run parallel to British law. Her article included:

"While most women who come to Southall Black Sisters do not want religious courts to interfere in their lives, they also fear the stigma of not getting a religious divorce and being unable to remarry in a mosque. Often a civil divorce is not available to the women because, unknown to them, they did not have a valid marriage in the first place. From 2000, there has been an increase in women complaining about their inability to get religious divorces even when they have been deserted by their husbands or have left a violent relationship. The issue of stigma also haunts Jewish women in the Beth Din where the power to grant a divorce lies with the man. A woman who is refused a religious divorce, a get, turns into the ‘chained woman’ and her children from a remarriage will inherit the stigma and be unable to marry other members of Orthodox Jewish communities."

I do not understand why you object to people expressing a different view from yourself. It is not a personal criticism - it is just a difference of opinion. That is how debate works. And you have certainly not been "flamed" - several people have agreed with you.

www.opendemocracy.net/5050/rahila-gupta/no-exceptions-one-law-for-all