Cannot believe this bigotry

Why do we demand others live as we do? We keep on about our traditions etc but expect others to abandon theirs.
Did anyone see the programme on at 10 on channel 4 about arranged marriages? This would be one of the traditions I would want them to abandon. I don't think that's asking too much.

No, his use of the word baggage is not the same as being tied down because the latter does not mean never talking to a woman until they get married.

I don't expect others to live as we do, but I do expect some degree of integration with the wider community and again, I am not sure if this happens for many Muslims. It was clear from the programme that the mosque tries to provide a lot of services like day care and schools. But are these available to the wider community or just Muslims? If everything on your doorstep is in keeping with your religion, what kind of peer pressure is there that stops people engaging with others from outside your community?

I completely agree with your last sentence, but my point is that I am not sure if the law is being upheld. As I said before my concerns are around discrimination and equality legislation.

This is from the BBC website -

What about Sharia and women?

Some Muslim women in Britain are concerned about how their rights are protected. Take marriage for example. Muslims only consider themselves truly married once they have conducted the Islamic ceremony, known as the nikah. In some cases, this means that there is a cultural view that the British civil ceremony, which enforces legal rights under the law, is not important. Some mosques are aware of this issue and now demand to see a marriage certificate as a condition of the nikah. Others do not. Many women want Muslim leaders to do more to ensure their rights are protected under British law...

So women have reservations about Sharia?

Some Muslim women in the West would be worried about protection of their rights in Sharia courts where there is discrimination against them because of patriarchal and cultural control in their communities. This does not mean that they are necessarily opposed to Sharia - only there are concerns about the fairness of its application. It's fair to say that many leading Muslim women are more concerned about how existing British equality measures and human rights laws can be used to improve their position and voice in society.

I do not believe that religion should be the reason the law should not apply to any women in the UK. In fact, apart from religious ceremonies inside mosques, I do not believe in segregation of the sexes has a place in our society.

Wilma, authodox Jews do not allow a woman to invite a man into her home if she is alone, if a friend of mine husband visits his mother in law without his wife he has to remain outside the flat if she is alone , she accepts this, my friend and her husband accept this , it's their tradition

I think we all agree that we accept 'most' traditions from other peoples.
But I think saying to your Daughter at 16 "If you don't marry your uneducated non English speaking first cousin, I'm going to kill you" taking things a bit far. Moderating my language for the sake of sensibilities.

Petra, yes this is wrong and against the law, but more and more Muslim girls are receiving a better education, more are going to university , with time I do believe some things will change, what happens is some believe forced marriages happen in every Muslim family and it does not . The more we keep criticising their dress etc the more harm we are doing

I understand that and accept it. But the key word is Orthodox. The majority of Jews are integrated in UK society. Inside the synagogue men and women sit separately and I have no problem with this. In fact, I can understand the reasoning why this happens. Also Orthodox Jewish courts (Beth Din) are recognised in the UK, but are not allowed to operate a system which does not recognise the equal rights of both spouses. This is not the case with Sharia law because of the inequality between the rights of men and women.

Surely it is essential, if Britain is to remain a society based on equality before the law, that we do not start allowing communities to discriminate against women? Muslim men can be part of British society and Muslim women should be able to be part too.

"The vast majority of people attracted to the ideology of terror, violence and murder suffer from deep social alienation and are psychologically disconnected from mainstream society. A study from the Hoover Institution at Stanford University suggests that among other complex motivations, righting perceived wrongs is a major terrorist motivation.

British documentary film-maker Rob Leach has pointed out that there are many complex reasons why young people, men in particular, are attracted towards Islamic extremism. Many experience deep-rooted ingrained factors of poverty, non-belonging or marginalisation and have a perceived sense of social injustice.

The government is asking teachers, social and youth workers, community leaders and other professionals to take responsibility with these complex and wider societal issues as part of the Prevent strategy. Instead, our already overworked teachers need to be left alone to do what they do best – inspire, engage, motivate, educate and above all, teach."

From someone who has studied Islam.
If we alienate them, what do we expect? If we make them feel unwanted or misunderstood, it's not surprising that they join groups where they feel wanted.

petra Many Muslims - and Hindus - have some form of "arranged" marriage. What I think most people do not approve of are "forced" marriages, which are illegal in this country.

My next door neighbours had an "arranged" marriage in that both their families were involved in making what they thought was a suitable match between their respective son and daughter. From what I see, they have a perfectly happy marriage and the wife is by no means "ruled" by her husband.

I absolutely agree with Anniebach and durhamjen that continually criticising a person's religion and culture is counter-productive. I have several friends who were brought up in strict Catholic environments. Some have upheld those beliefs and practices whilst at least two of them have not. I feel quite sure that had they and their families been subjected to an onslaught of disapproval of their families' and community's religious practices they would have become defensive and, despite some doubts, would have continued with religious practices that they might otherwise have questioned or abandoned.

My father's family were part of a very small Catholic minority in a Protestant/reformed Canton. All my cousins had arranged (not forced) marriages so they would stay Catholic, and encouraged to have large families.

Excellent post dj, exactly.

The sooner religious schools are got rid off- the better. Allowing segregation via religion is disastrous.

Well said Jen and Eloethan , constant criticism is poured on Muslims , they will draw closer together , it's the same as being bullied

I've met, and worked with, educated, sophisticated young women from various communities whose marriages were arranged - with their own input. They assured me it was possible to refuse apparently suitable young men after meeting them. In one case she felt comfortable with the prospective bridegroom but much less so with his family.
So young womens' relationships with their parents are, understandably, key to the issue.

So to Annie", *jen and*Eloethan*, the current spur of this discussion was prompted by me asking if anyone had watched last night's BBC2 documentary Welcome to the Mosque. It is the third documentary by Rob Leech, a former tree surgeon who documented his step-brother Richard's conversion to Islam (^My Brother the Islamist^) and then his subsequent imprisonment for terrorist offences (^My Brother the Terrorist^).

Do you agree with the segregation of male and female Muslims as shown in last night's programme? I certainly agree Rob Leech was welcomed at the mosque and everyone we saw seemed nice and open to his questions. I believed what we were told about the mosques not promoting extremism, not doubting what people said. My concern is mainly about segregation, and discrimination towards female Muslims. I couldn't agree more about the shame on hearing the new generation being targets because of their religion and not the colour of their skin.

Again, though as a lapsed Catholic I would argue that the comparison is not particularly relevant because of the integration aspect. If female Muslim leaders can talk about the rights of Muslim women, why can't we on here without being criticised? I want to know more, be proved wrong, without being flamed.

PS I don't have a problem with arranged marriages, but forced marriages (which are illegal in the UK) I do.

Wilma I was referring to petra's comment where she said that she does not believe arranged marriages should be seen as acceptable in the UK. I was pointing out that forced marriages are, of course, illegal but arranged marriages are not and - in my opinion - nor should they be.

With regard to your claim that the Beth Din system does not disadvantage women in any way, Rahil Gupta wrote an article in Open Democracy in which she argued against any quasi-legal religious systems that run parallel to British law. Her article included:

"While most women who come to Southall Black Sisters do not want religious courts to interfere in their lives, they also fear the stigma of not getting a religious divorce and being unable to remarry in a mosque. Often a civil divorce is not available to the women because, unknown to them, they did not have a valid marriage in the first place. From 2000, there has been an increase in women complaining about their inability to get religious divorces even when they have been deserted by their husbands or have left a violent relationship. The issue of stigma also haunts Jewish women in the Beth Din where the power to grant a divorce lies with the man. A woman who is refused a religious divorce, a get, turns into the ‘chained woman’ and her children from a remarriage will inherit the stigma and be unable to marry other members of Orthodox Jewish communities."

I do not understand why you object to people expressing a different view from yourself. It is not a personal criticism - it is just a difference of opinion. That is how debate works. And you have certainly not been "flamed" - several people have agreed with you.

www.opendemocracy.net/5050/rahila-gupta/no-exceptions-one-law-for-all

Eloethan I don't object to the opinions of others at all and I do think I have misunderstood who was being addressed. I didn't realise you were referring to petra's post and I will admit I am frustrated at the lack of response about segregation. I want to understand more about how this works with the law in the UK. As I said earlier I feel conflicted and confused about this and until your reply, no one has responded about the segregation issue.

Re the Beth Din system, I thought the problem of the imbalance between men and women had been resolved by UK case law in 2012. After reading the article you posted I can understand this might not be the case. In the past in both Muslim and Jewish communities, sometimes the civil marriage did not take place, only the religious ceremony, meaning that there was no legal marriage. The common practice now is the civil marriage must take place before the mosque or synagogue will agree to the religious ceremony. This doesn't help the women who were married without a civil marriage and they are in limbo. It is a dreadful situation for the families.

My experience living in an an area with a large Pakistani myslim community and working with colleagues from that community is that the separation that wilmak talks about has increased.

An arranged marriage involves both bride and groom it is worth remembering. I had a young Muslim man as a student for his final teaching practice. A very fine teacher, called Mr Hussein, during the first Iraq war which caused a touch of concern initially with my Y6 class.

He shocked us all in the staff room by talking about his forthcoming marriage to a young woman he had only met twice, but whom he had liked and agreed to marry. It was clear that this young woman, a law student, was also agreeable to marrying under these terms.

Iam64. That's interesting. Would you say that it is the Muslims distancing themselves from non Muslims or visa versa.

Do not confuse "arranged" marriages with forced arranged marriages. There is a big difference and both take place. Some cultures do go for arranged marriages where there is choice. That is usually about making introductions via perhaps family and friends.

The problem is knowing whether or not both parties in an 'arranged' marriage agreed willingly to the marriage.

An arranged marriage may well be forced upon one of the couple but how would anybody know? There are both male and females who are too scared of their families and 'bringing shame' on their parents they just simply go ahead and get married. They are 'forced' into an 'arranged' marriage.

Arranged marriages are fine if and when both parties have a mutual desire to undertake this cultural way of marriage, but you, I, nobody knows how many of those who have undertaken to do so were bullied, obliged , scared to say 'no' do we?

This happens.

No different to all the shotgun marriages prior to the sixties POGS, with the exception of a pregnancy

Maybe but aren't those days behind us now?

We have moved on Anniebach .

Yes we have POGS , people do move on as history shows , even the windsors seemed to have stopped arranged marriages and that was after the eighties

Well, it doesn't seem as though the custom of arranged marriages is going to die out among those who practise it any time soon.

Being half Jewish I grew up amongst Jewish people. My father's family was orthodox, not 'ultra', but he still married a Christian. Judaism in England has changed considerably during my lifetime. They too had arranged marriages when I was a child and men were separated from women in the synagogue.
In liberal synagogues however they are not segregated and there are quite a few female rabbis.
Jews are quite good at adapting as they historically have had to be. Muslims, being historically the conquerors haven't, so it remains to be seen whether or not they will. Maybe given time.
Fortunately, in a Jewish home liberal or orthodox the boss is invariably the mother. Hence the plethora of Jewish mother jokes. I wonder if Muslims also make jokes against themselves.