Refugees

Yes petra. I can only judge behaviour.

Ana. Perhaps not reside there explains it better. So they would be like any other soldier who went and fought there.

Ana. I think Soontobe has been watching too many action films. You know the ones where the heros jump out of helicopters, kill a few baddies, fly out again. Sorted.

Soontobe. By these 'Badly behaved people' are you referring to Isis, the Taliban, the Eritrean government?
Is badly behaved the worst description you can come up with for these evil bastards.

The refugees who are putting their lives at risk must be so desperate in their own countries. So many of them are from countries that are being ripped apart by terrible civil wars. They are just trying to find a better life. God help them.

How can they leave, and then go back and fight without living there, soontobe?

You've said this before - what does it mean, seriously?

Jane10. 2 points against what you are saying, and one for.

Things dont necessarily have to improve in a troubled country. The badly behaved people could fight each other.

People are not obliged to fight for their country if it has not been a very nice one.
If you lived in a country you did not like, is there a point in fighting for it?

As I said before though, people can leave, and then go back and fight without living there.

The problem that I can see, which you have mentioned is the people that dont want to be there also, who are left behind.
Their families may be able to join them at a later date, so perhaps they think it is a price worth paying?

Refugees are risking and suffering from truly awful ways to die. Even those who survive have endured a gruesome experience and paid extortionate amounts of money to do so.

absentgrandma If someone is fleeing for his life, especially if he is from a country with draconian laws and which acknowledges few, if any human rights, it would be difficult and unsafe simply to buy airline tickets. Just trying to obtain a passport could put the refugee – and, very probably, his family – directly in the line of fire.

As to whether I would choose flight or fight at whatever age, I could not say, having never lived under a vicious dictatorship or in the middle of a civil war.

That's what you always say when I raise this point Dj. There has never been such a wholesale rush by fit young men before. We've gone over and over on this point in several threads now. How will things ever improve in those troubled countries if the fittest all leave? The first generation of young men who wouldn't stay and fight for their country. We'll never agree on this. Goodnight

Jane of what do you remain unconvinced?

Women and children are not being abandoned, Jane10. The men can find somewhere to live and work and then their families can follow. That is the normal way for refugees. The men aren't on a jaunt.

Like everyone else I am sickened by this - nearly 300 people have died in the last few days.

One refugee who was interviewed today was exasperated by the idea that people might think they take these risks for trivial reasons - as he said - we do it because otherwise we will die.

As someone who is very claustrophobic I'm so distressed to hear of people dying in such circumstances.

How insufferable your life must be to subject yourself and your children to such a tortuous journey to try and seek safety.

I can't begin to imagine their last moments.

I entirely agree its horrific, appalling and disgusting too in every way. I'm just struck time and again at the preponderance of male refugees. I worry about the women who are not prioritised for escape it would seem. Where are they? How are they managing? I know you'll come back with all the usual suggestions as to what's going on but I remain unconvinced. Women and children are being abandoned to their fate.

Jane10 Why is that an appropriate remark when such a terrible tragedy has occurred? Whether they were men, women or children (and there was also apparently one baby), they must have all suffered dreadfully.

I am shocked, saddened, nauseated and horrified in equal measure and if anyone starts to moan about " immigrant numbers" they might feel the rough edge of my tongue.
No-one, I repeat no-one deserves to die like this -except the traffickers responsible.

I heard on the news that among the 71 on board that truck, 8 were women, 4 children and the rest were men. Hmmmm.

I've got that book - perhaps you live near me? Aujan 32300.

Arghhh!! I'll get it right in a minute..... MOONLIGHT Drop to Gascony.

Sorry..... should be Midnight Drop to Gascony'

Yes I do know that Tricia F, my 'garagiste' is one Erique Portillo, my 'voisin' is an Antonio Perez. Most of the Spanish retereros who joined the Resistance were battle -hardened communists, who scared the living daylights out of the French Resistance. They took no prisoners, but unfortunately brought down the wrath of God( the Gestapo ) on the local populace, most of whom ...like me.... just wanted to keep below the radar.
Anyone interested in a first hand account of the SOE in SW France might find Anne Marie Walter's book 'Moonlight to Gascony 'an enjoyable read.
',

Absentgrandma - many of those Spanish refugees later joined the Resistance to fight against the German invaders, so they played their part. There are still many descendants of those Spaniards where we live.
Everyone seems to find reasons for what is happening, and no-one comes up with an answer. It's an unprecented mass movement of huge populations from one part of the world to another, not just a steady trickle.
I've been trying to think of a parallel situation in history to get some clues, but haven't found one yet .
Apart from the exit of the Hebrews from Egypt, and look what happened to them.

Thanks for the additional information Absent. It's good to plug the holes in ones historical knowledge.

You have made a good point about the refugees understanding of the dangers. I suppose only someone in that situation can only fully know what is involved.

x

Spanish Civil war refugees flooded into France through the Pyrenees, if they could they came through on the Mediterranean side.... into Perpignan and lived rough on the beaches,notably Canet Plage. Their treatment by the French authorities was nothing short of despicable, but then the French have always been short on compassion. The number of refugees was minute compared to today's figures, but at the time the indigenous French population ( p...s poor and largely illiterate ) were only concerned with themselves . The vast majority on that side of the country hadn't hesrd of the arial bombing of Guernica by the German Condor Division,for example And if they had I doubt they would have had much sympathy with the Spanish Basques.
History lesson over, what I can't understand is why,in this high technology age with such easy access to social media, would-be refugees don't realise what they are letting themselves in for when they pay extortionate sums to trafficers to get them to Europe.
Surely they could buy airline tickets to get them straight to where they want to be and arrive semi- legitimately.... have to go through immigration checks just as they have to do when they arrive,exhausted, at Lesbos or somewher similar, and then face a further journey (on foot as some are proposing to do) to Germany.
I'm quite sure better brains than me on GN will be able provide the answer, but having seen old ladies struggling through barbed wire I really want to know why the hell they are putting themselves through it. If France were to crumble into complete anarchy, I'm afraid at my age I'd just keep my head down (or tucked in like a tortoise ) and stay put. Forty years ago I would have fought rather than fled.

I feel responsible

A UN response to the crisis would be welcomed.