Does money have any worth?

The Greek government can set the pension age any age they like, it just takes legislation. Pension ages are not uniform across Europe but in most countries they are going up. Greece has just got to opt for an age like 65 and do it.

Good post FlicketyB.

How can they do that, Flickety?
Pension ages and levels are different in all EU countries.

Sorry about the typos in posting.

The Greeks, government and people, got themselves into this mess and the EU made it worse by letting them fiddle the figures to join the euro. It is up to the Greek people and the EU to work out how to get themselves out of it.

For decades the Greek economy has been a byword for bad management. The government has met any unrest in their country by granting everyone huge pensions from as young as 50, and many other benefis they could not afford and didn't have the money for. Greece also has a grossly inflated bureaucracy. For example, most towns have their own civic orchestra. This means all the musicians like everybody else are civil servants in unsackable lifetime jobs with pensions at 50. The Greeks, like the Italians are notrious for avoiding paying taxes at all costs.

The EU then connived in distorting and ignoring all the contra indications in order to let Greece in on the Euro. Britain had the sense to stay out.

The EU and banks need to talk directly to the people not the Greek government and spell out in words of one syllable why the country is in the mess it is in. Make the people understand their personal responsibilty for what is happening to the country. Make the bail-out conditional on them paying their taxes and rawing pensions at the same age as other countries and at similar levels, which would be no state pension until you are 65 and occupational untilyou are 60.

I do not want to see people starving in the streets as they are now and systems must be set up to protect children in particular.

Some countries, like many of those in Africa, get into financial messes as the result of bribery and curruption at government level, because their economies are over dependent on one commodity and because of the lack of real democratic accountability. Greece has none of those excuses, it is a democratic country. The country, government and people, got themselves into miss mess, the Euro countries in the EU connived at it. Let them sort it out.

I just checked my stash of Euro notes and have one Greek one .The long number on the back starts with a Y . Might just keep it in case it is rare some day , or maybe spend it as soon a possible .

Yes soon

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_relief

No soon but they must give Greece conditions in order to secure future tax collection

How would they do this? Make it a condition of the loans?

For years charities have been trying to get other countries to allow African countries to forgo interest on loans, but it hasn't happened there, in some of the poorest countries in the world. I cannot see it happening to Greece.

I agree with whitewave, it's a problem of tax collection. Country by country reporting so that all taxes are paid in the country that money is earned is necessary, not just in Europe but throughout the world.

No soon but they must give Greece conditions in order to secure future tax collection. We know that there is a big element in Greece that are avoiding tax all self employed or nearly all. If the EU accepted that the debt cannot be paid it wouldn't be popular but the present situation is ridiculous.

Yes, it will be the interest. That is when things collapse.

I cant quite understand what you are suggesting whitewave? That the EU goes in and takes over? The people wont allow that.

I think it is the interest that they can't pay. It seems a total nonsense to me. Greece can never pay it back. The EU needs some courage to think laterally and once it does it can take the situation and the self-employed Greece in hand.

What about forgoing the interest? Then Greece might find it possible to repay the capital sum over time. I know the interest is a huge amount of money but have no idea what percentage it represents.

When a country is bankrupt, all of its citizens suffer in some way.

I understand what you are saying PRINTMISS and often feel quite bemused when people refer to X amount of "grand" as though they are counting pennies. Paying millions of pounds for a house in London almost seems to be the norm for some when others wouldn't see that amount of money in 10 lifetimes.

Getting back to Greece I can understand how frustrated it is for the UK who are really trying hard to make cuts, sometimes very unkind cuts. Cutting back on public sector non-jobs (well some of them anyway) and making everyone work longer. Greece however have refused to cut public sector wages or alter the public sector pensions or retirement age. I'm sorry but what's good for the goose...........

Of course we cannot live with money durhamjen and I am not suggesting that, what I was thinking is that money is worth less now than it was - after all my husband's £1000 per year salary was substantial in those days, not so at present, although of course if one was penniless, then £1000 would be almost be a fortune. I just feel that we talk of billions without really realising how much that is - I can't even imagine how much it is, the mind just boggles. I feel sorry for the Greek people, they are generous by nature, or at least when we have visited we have found that so, and hope that a workable solution to their problem will be found.

A lot of people only deal with life in the short term.

Perhaps they should have thought about that before they embraced the Euro so enthusiastically.

Does money have any worth, PRINTMISS?
I wouldn't like to try living without it. Neither would the Greeks I know.

Yes, I've heard that too, gillybob. It's how Greece operated for years, but when they applied to join the EU they didn't seem to realise that they couldn't go on doing it.

Sadly, a lot of Greece's problems stem from bad management and corruption. DH and I know a few people from both Greece and Cyprus and they are amazed at how we pay tax, corporation tax, employers national insurance etc. in our (very) small business. They tell us that Greek and Cypriot small businesses take every possible measure to avoid tax (as do the self employed), and often accountants are on,y paid on the basis of avoiding tax. Everything is available at a (cash) price from passing the driving test, to an examination certificate. Additionally it would appear that most of the public sector workers (and many others to) have been allowed to retire at a very early age on almost extortionate pensions so it was inevitable that the country would eventually go bust.

There was a Harvard Professor on the radio 4 one morning who originally worked for the IMF - he said that Greece will never be able to pay back the money owing and it is totally inhumane what the EU is expecting of the Greek people. What is happening to Greece by the imposition of more and more austerity will ensure it simply totally goes down the pan.

I guess it's the euro and the EU that has to be protected - at all costs.

I don't think for one moment, Greece will be forced to leave.

That's the problem isn't it? Greece isn't the only european country in the I confess to feeling some sympathy though, for their argument that after WW2 the Germans were allowed to evade some of their debts in order to re-build their shattered economy/country and given the devastation caused by the Nazi's in Greece the Greeks would like similar leeway. I don't mean to be flippant or unpleasant but over the years I've become increasingly aware of the impact of WW2 on the Greeks. Crete is my favourite place in Greece and the Battle of Crete continues to be commemorated in moving ceremonies there.