Prince Charles in Ireland

Cruelty wasn't confined to one side of this conflict jbf. British soldiers acting on orders from British ministers killed and tortured innocent people. If you are condemning the people who were responsible are you only condemning one side or everyone? I think we should accept what happened and move on. If IRA members are never to be considered "decent human beings" does the same apply to everyone involved?

that was to trisher

Whaaat???!!!

The man I most admire is the father of the boy who was killed while out shopping [was it in Warrington]. So much dignity and lack of hatred; I could never have been like that.

I don't know why you brought up "Rule Britannia" Anniebach it's a Jingoistic anachronism from the mid 18th century. It doesn't resonates now. I can't see anyone hearing it in England, stand in reverance, hand to heart American style.

I have Irish grandmother on one side, I went to Catholic schools and had many friends with Irish parents, I never thought it was worse when English people were blown up, I thought and do think any loss of life through terrorism is shocking and awful. I am well aware of the history of Ireland. My mother told me that her mother's people were Fenians once. I sympathise with the objectives of the Irish Nationalist but not their methods. Indiscriminate killing of innocent people is murder. The Irish victims didn't deserve that and neither did those English blown up or injured here on the main land. I think Prince Charles has been magnanimous in extending an Olive branch.

jbf. "How can anyone who once condoned the cruelty that went on before the peace process suddenly become decent, honourable human beings?"
Does this include the members of the British government who issued the orders, and the soldiers who served in N. Ireland and carried them out?

I'm not pursuing this any further. You'll be glad to hear.

I sometimes wonder about the Germans. Well, they're the same people....

That will get deleted. (it's ok HQ. Don't need an email. )

Terri, I do not hold the English responsible for atrocities carried out many years ago, I do not hold this generation of Germans responsible for the war. I do agree with moving on but difficult when some have no wish to and choose to glory in the past but get very miffed if the truth of the past is brought up.

Moving on can only be a success if all do so

I imagine every single country has a past littered with wars, oppression and some kind of terrorism. Small countries got larger by conquering their neighbours and it was not the custom to be magnanimous to the defeated side. Those who had been subjugated fought guerilla wars for centuries, and memories of past atrocities fuelled traditional contempt for "the other" in both directions. Very, very few alliances lasted long enough for the parties to merge happily into one unit.

Within the mainland of the UK, there were bloody wars between the various tribes and regions, not to mention those with foreign invaders. You don't need to cross to Ireland to find evidence of confiscated land, looted treasure, disenfranchised and enslaved natives.

At some point, the warring sides HAVE to put the past into a museum and get on with living together and building an equal and co-operative society. It takes statesmanship and magnanimity to do that with dignity.

And I have been discussing events within my living memory. Those things are harder to forget because of the emotions felt when they happened.

No. But I do try to see both sides. And I hope I do not sound embittered.

Just out of interest, do you have Irish roots?

Jingle, you are not willing to let go of the wrongs carried out by the IRA

Speaking of dusters.... [roastchickenievacuumcleaner]

Agree with Greyduster.

Sorry. What has the ANC got to do with Prince Charles being in Ireland and meeting Adams?

I certainly condemn all those horrible people who carried out the "necklace" killings. And those who imprisoned Nelson Mandela.

I think you have to let go of horrible wrongs that happened in the past. Otherwise you are in danger of becoming embittered.

"I cringe when I hear Rule Britannia"

What a horrible lot the English are! Whilst I'm only part English myself, I feel that part of my English heritage needs to be reminded frequently how we opressed the Irish since the time of Elizabeth 1, became colonolists all over the world and benefited from all the ills that went with that, because seemingly none of us will have read about any of this and we mistakenly think we are somehow, as individuals, not that bad. After all we didn't play any part in all that, and don't think it was something we should glory in. Even though most of the English nation didn't have the vote or have any say in policy making, and many etched out a life in poverty, that doesn't let us off the hook, English blood is enough to make you an opressor. Look how we subjugated the Welsh and the Scots, this is our legacy, and no amount of mea culpas can make any difference we the English did that. We only need a bit of English blood to make us culpable of being complicit in all the atrocities commited in our name in any country we leeched off.

Nevertheless, now we are all "one" nation as it were with our European neighbours, let us not mention the fact that Germany started two world wars and tried to wipe out a whole race of people, along with anyone else who didn't measure up to the Ayran ideal, or for that matter the colonolist French, Spanish, Dutch, Belgian, Portuguese who also carved up large parts of the world between them. Lets go with the proposal to rename Waterloo station in London in case any French person get too upset that we defeated their marauding expansionist emperor at that battle.

Sorry to be a bit off subject here but I often pick up an anti English sentiments from a Gransnetter or two on occasions. I'm not anti Irish, French or German some of my family hail from those places I detect a "Lets move on" attitude in Europe and don't imagine that those who like to beat the English with a big stick from time to time would choose to do that to some of our European counterparts.

At present, as I understand it, only 7% of pupils in Northern Ireland are educated in integrated schools. I personally think that this is the key to it all. Without integration at an early age, the two sides will not each learn that the other does not have horns and a tail and sectarianism will die the death if deserves. Otherwise the urban mythology is self perpetuating.

Jingle, do you condemn the ANC? And yes the past did happen and ruin lives but does the past start with the forming of the IRA or with the reasons for the forming of the IRA. Bombing is so wrong, evicting families and taking land from people because of their faith is so wrong , hatred breeds hatred, the crown taught the Irish to hate

Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness make my blood boil. they are fooling no one - on second thoughts, maybe they are.

Oh, and btw trisher, I didn't call you crass.

And I'm talking about terrorists and terrorist leaders, on both sides.

How can anyone who once condoned the cruelty that went on before the peace process suddenly become decent, honourable human beings? I know we have to work with them for the sake of all, but the past did happen and ruined lives are still being led, without their lost loved ones.

Agree with trisher and Grannytwice. It's forgotten the IRA was formed for the same reasons as the ANC, why do some think England has a god given right to control any country. Every day we hear of Muslims and immigrants not accepting British values - what ever they are - we have done the same to other countries for centuries . Australia, New Zealand, India, S A, Ireland etc . I cringe when I hear Rule Britannia, God who made thee mighty! No god did not, guns did. The ANC and the IRA fought back with the same . I admire the Irish people who accepted the visit from Charles with forgiveness

And quite frankly, anyone who thinks that the IRA were the whole problem knows nothing about Irish history and the grievous wrongs that RCs suffered from Elizabeth 1's times through to the Peace Agreement . I'm still amazed that things have changed so much although there is clearly a way to go.