Is wolf-whistling a sex crime?

I totally agree that the behaviour is something I would find totally unacceptable in any of my male friends or relatives and my 3 DSs know this. The young man interviewed is 28 the young woman is 23, he describes her as a "Silly girl" two words which illustrate his real opinion of women. How anyone could support or excuse his behaviour I don't understand.

GrannyTwice, you are right, this thread is in danger of committing it's own sex crime by going round in so many circles that it will disappear up it's own @@@@@

I'm sorry! But:-
In my seventies, I'd be delighted and flattered if I got a wolf whistle!
I'm much more likely to get 'can I help you across the road? Dear?)

If I got a wolf whistle I would ask them if they needed to go to Specsavers.
(sorry to bring a note of frivolity to the thread, I have made some more thoughtful posts above )

I'd be chuffed to be wolf whistled too.

A few months ago I overheard a man say to his friend that I had a lovely bum. I wasn't in the least upset. In fact I was quite flattered.

VQ
Quite!

He actually said that after being shown the video by the police, he and his colleagues curbed their behaviour because:

'It's not worth getting into trouble over some silly little girl. I don't know why she complained, she must be thinking things above her station.'

'I'm sure if she walks past again and she is lucky she will get wolf-whistled again. I have wolf-whistled so many girls and got so many birds and snogged so many girls off the back of that, and never had a complaint before. But I've got a girlfriend so need to be careful what I say'.

Sounds a real charmer doesn't he.

The comments that follow the various articles about this story suggest that wolf whistling supporters also have a similar attitude towards women who don't behave in the appropriate way when they are "complimented":

"Get over it love ......."

"I'd take it as a compliment, you're not that attractive! She really needs to get over herself!"

"No boyfriend? I wonder why!!!!!!"

"Is Poppy Smart a lesbian? I think she must be. I have never met a straight woman who wasn't pleased when men found her attractive."

"The only thing a woman hates more than being whistled at.....is the day when the whistles stop because she's old."

Modern feminism is the green light for such women unfortunately - 'look at me I'm a victim it's all the fault of the patriarchy'!

"Did she have to take the same route to work every day?"

"Sexual provocation - as practised by many (most?) young British women is also not acceptable and should not be tolerated."

"A woman who wears provocative clothing is a menace to herself and to the human race."

So those who support the way these builders behaved might like to reflect on the level of dislike and disrespect for women that those who also support these men demonstrate.

When I was 16 walking back to work a man told me that I was sitting on a fortune. Being very young and quite innocent it took me awhile to figure out what he meant. At that age I was quite frightened and confused but way back then there was no-one to talk to about it.

As with the sheep I mentioned earlier, it does all come down to sex appeal and I think some of us don't want to accept that, or want to think that human beings are not subject to the same biological drives as other life forms.
Don't take me wrong, I don't mean that sexual signalling and sexual-toned behaviour (such as wolf whistling) should not be curbed to some extent in order that society can run in a civilised fashion and in order that men and women can live together.
BUT, I interpret wolf whistles in the same way as I interpret women's efforts to make themselves look as attractive as possible. We kid ourselves it's for our own sakes. It's not. It's to enhance our sexual attractiveness because that's how life works. So, I'm not criticising people who want to make thmeselves look attractive. Most of us do. I do. It's normal. We may differ in our taste as to what attractiveness is, but we all do it. Similarly, there are some male behaviours that some of like and some don't. Wolf whistling is one of them, as has been made obvious by comments on this thread and on threads in newspapers. Did anyone see the Guardian's take on the Poppy Smart story yesterday — contrasting articles from a series of people which, if nothing else, showed that it's not something everyone will agree on however many times we dance around it.

There is an argument, oft repeated, that women should be able to walk around wearing whatever they like and not have to endure comments. I don't agree with that argument in exactly the same way as I don't agree with the argument, if there is one (but I've never heard it), that men should be able to walk around wearing whatever they like and not have their appearance commented upon.

Planting himself in her path was a step too far beyond what I'm going to call civilised sexual signalling, but wolf whistling is not. And that's the issue people disagree over, and probably always will. We are sexual animals and wolf whistling, like hair beautification and make-up and clothes fashion, is a harmless, if annoying to some people, sexual signal.

quite thatbags
a very good post.

Yes, good post ThatBags.
I love my wife for many reason, one being that she has an active brain and everything that goes with it. However when I saw her for the very first time at the Royal Ballroom back in 1963, did I think "she looks Ike a girl who can hold a conversation" ?) NO, I thought "nice face, tits and bum" I could fancy her. DID I wolf whistle her, no, but I did inside my head.

Well put Pompa also thatbags - a very well observed post.

When my husband saw me for the first time he said that an electric shock went through his body. I thought yes - that's the chap for me. I guess it was mostly sexual attraction but I think there's more to it than that.

I also thought he had wonderful eyes, had a good job and was physically and mentally fit.

Important things when you will eventually have children together. He also thought I had kind eyes.

Cheeky Pompa well said

"nice face, tits and bum" At that moment I was too far away to see the colour of her eyes, let alone know anything else about her, 20 yards or so across a crowded dance floor. I do remember having some very cheesy chat up lines.

Whistling etc is an intrusion of privacy -
Some people dont like their privacy intruded.
Some people are more private than others. [I am talking about general wolk whistling here, not Poppy's case of the man blocking her way].
I think that the people who dont like wolf whistling at all, are also the ones, who keep to themselves on trains and elsewhere.
But there are the other group of people who chat to strangers, if it is reciprocated, at bus stops and in shops etc.

A very good post thatbags

Eloethan some of the responses you posted sound quite disturbing in their attitude to women, but is it a case bravado because male pride - and arrogance - was dented? I hope so, if not what kind of men are they? What we might have called 'pub talk' before so many became 'brave' online.

pompa
(I wonder what Mrs P thought of your cheesy chat-up lines? Inwardly groaning, but thinking 'perhaps I might give him a chance')

There's a difference between being chatted up by a person you have a mutual attraction to and having some moron shouting out a cliched inane comment to a complete stranger. Although I think Bags has made some pertinent points, like other species it's often about putting on a display for the opposite sex, kind of hard wired into the psyche I suppose.

Reading through Eloethan's post about the man at the centre of this debacle, what an arrogant nasty piece of work, which again takes me back to my younger working days in the sexist 70s when I felt I had to run the gauntlet not only on the way to work but sometimes in the work place itself. Tiresome times. In many offices there would be a certain type of man who thought it was quite acceptable to make a pass, without any encouragement, and when rebuffed and choked off, would feign innocence and somehow try and deflect their wrong doing back to the victim. Some men are simply incapable of reading the opposite sex, they really do think women are flattered by this type of attention, and possibly some are, but I would say a lot aren't.

Having said all that, I hate to tar all men with the same brush, my husband is fantastically intuitive towards women and loathes crass laddish behaviour and has done his up most to try and imbue our sons with the right attitude.

I'm sure my husband was thinking all the things you mentioned Pompa but I was sitting down so he couldn't see all of my attributes.

Getting off the point here, but there is a world of difference between harmless wolf whistles and more intimidating behaviour.

I was locked into a church hall way, way back by two lads who I thought were just friends.(we were all about 16.)

I was very frightened and felt betrayed because their motives were not ones of friendship.

I got out OK because I was very assertive but I never really thought of them in the same way again. I was so scared that I even thought of telling my mum about it but decided that the ensuing row wasn't worth it.

For those who dont like their privacy invaded, did you go to clubs when younger? Or avoided them?

When I was a 17 year old testosterone filled lad, dances. clubs etc. were the place to meet the opposite sex.

My post was a statement of my life when I was 16/17, not a comment on the wolf whistle debate.

For me Rod Stewart's song "You're In My Heart" sums much of my life up.

Macho males can be partly compared to animals displaying to a female, but not entirely. The difference is that most male animals are only interested in females for the short time that they are in oestrus. Outside that time, they ignore their sexual attractions completely. Male humans find females attractive all the time.

When female animals are in oestrus, they too are interested in the opposite sex and seek them out. At other times they concentrate on their own lives. There have been studies which showed that women too are more interested in men at certain points in their cycle than at others. (I can't remember details but I shall have a look. See below for some of the things that came up in a search) So there is a biological imbalance between the sexes. Men don't know that (and many won't listen if told)

Relevant studies

psp.sagepub.com/content/early/2008/08/21/0146167208323103.short
pss.sagepub.com/content/25/2/431.abstract
cdp.sagepub.com/content/20/2/87.abstract

I think this wolf whistling behaviour is more linked to asserting dominance - another animal behaviour - rather than sexual attraction. Hence this man's disgust that this particular young woman refused to play by the rules.

What happens in animal societies when females or lower ranked males don't read the signs? I guess the ante is upped (sorry, awful grammar), but he has been thwarted. So he's probably feeling very angry indeed. He needs to get civilised, quick.

Interesting, that, Elegran.
I observe the same thing with our chickens. the cockerels only go for a few of the hens, who accept them without demur, sometimes one after the other.
Then a week later, it's another hen that gets all the attention.
Strange - iI've just come onto this thread straight from a thread about the rape of women by Russians and Germans in WW2. Now that is another thing altogether
Maybe one reason why older people aren't so shocked by wolf whistles, or other pestering by men.

Thinking about it, isn't rape in war situations about domination as well?

Rape is often more about dominance than pleasure, and if being dominant becomes more important than mutual sexual pleasure, then rape seems perfectly reasonable to the rapist. Thinking that women always enjoy it (and enjoy being pestered) follows from that, and thence thinking that they only pretend they don't to be "above themselves"

Lower ranked animal males in a society with a hierarchy wouldn't dare take liberties - a higher ranking male would have his guts for garters.

In a similar human society they may come to a sticky end, too - King David sends Bathsheba's husband into the front line, where he is killed.