Is wolf-whistling a sex crime?

It seemed to me that she did tolerate the wolf-whistles, though didn't like them, but reported blocking her path.

I wasn't criticising her, jane. I was wondering out loud, so to speak, why she didn't do something to try and stop the nuisance sooner.

pompa, MrBags' initial reaction to seeing me (also on a dance floor) was similar to what you described when you first saw MrsP. He told me. Of course he thinks of me as a sexual object. The important addendum to that is, of course, that he doesn't only think of me as a sexual object.

I've had trouble with the phrase "sexual objectification" for a while but I couldn't put my finger on what was bothering me about it. I think I now know. I don't think sexual objectification is wrong per se. It only becomes wrong if it is the only attribute that is considered, by both men and women, when regarding another human being.

Bags I don't think the length of time she waited to report this behaviour is relevant to whether it's acceptable or not. Indeed, you might tolerate an isolated incident but need substantial evidence of sustained behaviour to make a valid complaint.
Criticising her for waiting a month is like asking women who have endured domestic abuse for years, why they didn't leave earlier.

petallus, I've heard the Biological Determinism argument you put forward before. I didn't know what it was called though so thank you for that. I think there's something in it but I don't know enough about it to outright accept or reject it.

You aren't missing my point, janea. You are disagreeing with my point.

I have a question. If the wolf whistling in this story was so distateful to Poppy, why did she wait a month to do anything about it? She didn't have to endure it for a month. She could have contacted the building company after a few days, or a week. She could even have contacted the police after a shorter length of time. I think it was the young man (who, I agree, does not seem very nice) standing in front of her and barring her way that was the catalyst to action. Poppy may not have liked the wolf whistling but wolf whistling does not stop you going about your business. Having someone deliberately get in your way and interfere with your progress, for no other reason than that you are a young, attractive female, does and is unacceptable behaviour.

Bags I may well be missing your point, but I think that even if you accept that going to work, having had a shower and applying modest amounts of makeup and wearing appropriate office clothing is female sexual behaviour (which I don't, I think it's going about your normal everyday business), it isn't at at the same level of sexual behaviour as wolf-whistling.

VQ King David was still exercising his power as head honcho - he made quite sure that Uriah was no competition.

petallus Animals come out of this better than builders. The average ram is only interested in sex for a brief few weeks in the autumn, while all the ewes are in season and actively chasing him (the rams, poor things, are knackered by the time they have all been serviced, they would be glad of a few refusals) They have less inclination than humans to wolf-whistle at goodlooking females at other times.

Not sure of the connection to wolf whistling but Bathsheba's husband wasn't getting above his station. King David was a voyeur who spied on Bathsheba as she bathed. He lusted after her and so sent her husband to his death in order to have her. He didn't think he should sleep with a woman whilst her husband was still alive so basically murdered him by default i.e. making sure he would die in battle.

Very articulate post Bags but I find I disagree with most of what you say.

When I was studying Psychology some years ago we were made aware of a number of theories which sought to explain human behaviour, Biological Determinism being one.

We were warned of the dangers of extrapolating in a simple logical manner from animal behaviour to human, as the latter are far more complex than the former.

In those days men loved Biological Determinism. I remember a lecture by one of our Professors who was well known to have short sexual affairs with his students, moving on from one to another after a few months. He justified such behaviour on the grounds that since female animals can only have one child at a time, which they then have to spend time rearing, but male animals can impregnate many female over a short period of time and don't have to care for the offspring, it was natural for men to be promiscuous and women to want to be monogamous. Most of the female students were cynical to say the least about this kind of theorising.

As for your first sentence, are you implying that those of us who object to the 'wolf whistling' are doing so because we don't want to accept that we are subject to the same biological drives as other life forms? If so, I don't think that's the case and it's certainly not true of me. Even at my age, I love being a sexual being and always try to dress in clothes which flatter my figure, make sure my hair is clean, and enjoy a bit of banter/flirtation with the opposite sex when I can.

However, I do not think this means I should suffer unwanted attention from groups of men who won't take no for an answer.

The sort of men I go for have a little more intelligence and sensitivity than the average ram!

Rape is often more about dominance than pleasure, and if being dominant becomes more important than mutual sexual pleasure, then rape seems perfectly reasonable to the rapist. Thinking that women always enjoy it (and enjoy being pestered) follows from that, and thence thinking that they only pretend they don't to be "above themselves"

Lower ranked animal males in a society with a hierarchy wouldn't dare take liberties - a higher ranking male would have his guts for garters.

In a similar human society they may come to a sticky end, too - King David sends Bathsheba's husband into the front line, where he is killed.

Thinking about it, isn't rape in war situations about domination as well?

Interesting, that, Elegran.
I observe the same thing with our chickens. the cockerels only go for a few of the hens, who accept them without demur, sometimes one after the other.
Then a week later, it's another hen that gets all the attention.
Strange - iI've just come onto this thread straight from a thread about the rape of women by Russians and Germans in WW2. Now that is another thing altogether
Maybe one reason why older people aren't so shocked by wolf whistles, or other pestering by men.

I think this wolf whistling behaviour is more linked to asserting dominance - another animal behaviour - rather than sexual attraction. Hence this man's disgust that this particular young woman refused to play by the rules.

What happens in animal societies when females or lower ranked males don't read the signs? I guess the ante is upped (sorry, awful grammar), but he has been thwarted. So he's probably feeling very angry indeed. He needs to get civilised, quick.

Macho males can be partly compared to animals displaying to a female, but not entirely. The difference is that most male animals are only interested in females for the short time that they are in oestrus. Outside that time, they ignore their sexual attractions completely. Male humans find females attractive all the time.

When female animals are in oestrus, they too are interested in the opposite sex and seek them out. At other times they concentrate on their own lives. There have been studies which showed that women too are more interested in men at certain points in their cycle than at others. (I can't remember details but I shall have a look. See below for some of the things that came up in a search) So there is a biological imbalance between the sexes. Men don't know that (and many won't listen if told)

Relevant studies

psp.sagepub.com/content/early/2008/08/21/0146167208323103.short
pss.sagepub.com/content/25/2/431.abstract
cdp.sagepub.com/content/20/2/87.abstract

When I was a 17 year old testosterone filled lad, dances. clubs etc. were the place to meet the opposite sex.

My post was a statement of my life when I was 16/17, not a comment on the wolf whistle debate.

For me Rod Stewart's song "You're In My Heart" sums much of my life up.

For those who dont like their privacy invaded, did you go to clubs when younger? Or avoided them?

I'm sure my husband was thinking all the things you mentioned Pompa but I was sitting down so he couldn't see all of my attributes.

Getting off the point here, but there is a world of difference between harmless wolf whistles and more intimidating behaviour.

I was locked into a church hall way, way back by two lads who I thought were just friends.(we were all about 16.)

I was very frightened and felt betrayed because their motives were not ones of friendship.

I got out OK because I was very assertive but I never really thought of them in the same way again. I was so scared that I even thought of telling my mum about it but decided that the ensuing row wasn't worth it.

There's a difference between being chatted up by a person you have a mutual attraction to and having some moron shouting out a cliched inane comment to a complete stranger. Although I think Bags has made some pertinent points, like other species it's often about putting on a display for the opposite sex, kind of hard wired into the psyche I suppose.

Reading through Eloethan's post about the man at the centre of this debacle, what an arrogant nasty piece of work, which again takes me back to my younger working days in the sexist 70s when I felt I had to run the gauntlet not only on the way to work but sometimes in the work place itself. Tiresome times. In many offices there would be a certain type of man who thought it was quite acceptable to make a pass, without any encouragement, and when rebuffed and choked off, would feign innocence and somehow try and deflect their wrong doing back to the victim. Some men are simply incapable of reading the opposite sex, they really do think women are flattered by this type of attention, and possibly some are, but I would say a lot aren't.

Having said all that, I hate to tar all men with the same brush, my husband is fantastically intuitive towards women and loathes crass laddish behaviour and has done his up most to try and imbue our sons with the right attitude.

A very good post thatbags

Eloethan some of the responses you posted sound quite disturbing in their attitude to women, but is it a case bravado because male pride - and arrogance - was dented? I hope so, if not what kind of men are they? What we might have called 'pub talk' before so many became 'brave' online.

pompa
(I wonder what Mrs P thought of your cheesy chat-up lines? Inwardly groaning, but thinking 'perhaps I might give him a chance')

Whistling etc is an intrusion of privacy -
Some people dont like their privacy intruded.
Some people are more private than others. [I am talking about general wolk whistling here, not Poppy's case of the man blocking her way].
I think that the people who dont like wolf whistling at all, are also the ones, who keep to themselves on trains and elsewhere.
But there are the other group of people who chat to strangers, if it is reciprocated, at bus stops and in shops etc.

"nice face, tits and bum" At that moment I was too far away to see the colour of her eyes, let alone know anything else about her, 20 yards or so across a crowded dance floor. I do remember having some very cheesy chat up lines.

Cheeky Pompa well said

Well put Pompa also thatbags - a very well observed post.

When my husband saw me for the first time he said that an electric shock went through his body. I thought yes - that's the chap for me. I guess it was mostly sexual attraction but I think there's more to it than that.

I also thought he had wonderful eyes, had a good job and was physically and mentally fit.

Important things when you will eventually have children together. He also thought I had kind eyes.