Our girls

I do agree Anya that the image of the typical offender was of a man on the periphery of society - a weird, dirty old man in a grubby raincoat, rather than a "respectable", personable man, holding down a responsible and respected job and having children of his own. Of course, we know better now.

However, in some cases it appears that it was not so much a lack of awareness that allowed these people to offend but a lack of will on the part of some people to do anything about it. Those who did venture to express their concerns were sometimes strongly discouraged from pursuing the matter. For instance, Mrs Thatcher had apparently already been warned about Savile's behaviour and had been urged not to allow him such freedom of movement.

I used to think that paedophiles were those (mainly) men who had been convicted and jailed for the rape and murder of young boys and girls. I never occurred to me that there were 'ordinary' men, celebrities, fathers and grandfathers, priests and vicars, organised gangs and so on who fell into this category.

It was only when I was working with children that this behaviour was recognised, by myself and colleagues.

What is happening, at long last, is the hardening of attitudes which actually condemns this behaviour instead of sweeping it under the carpet. Had there been more of an awareness and less acceptance of this abuse when Savile and co were operating I doubt this latest grooming would have reached such a scale.

I'm niw wondering just what is going to be uncovered regarding MPs, Parliament and No.10 ?

I had very few restrictions placed on me when I was around 12/13. I could go round to my friends' houses, go to the cinema, even go to a rhythm and blues club for young people and get the bus home fairly late at night, go to see pop stars at the local cinema and hang around waiting for autographs (the Kinks, the Stones, etc.). I had a good time but didn't misbehave.

The culture was different then. There was only the BBC and one commercial channel which showed fairly amateurish advertisements. There wasn't 24-hour television, or the internet, or mobile phones. Life was pretty simple and young people weren't constantly bombarded with information to make them feel inadequate or envious of others.

You could be right again Penstemmon.
It doesnt help at all that there are so many jobs now done by machines instead of people.

I will put the same link on here that I put on the feminism thread earlier.
I can only find a Daily Mail link re this
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2979456/Young-singers-models-WAGs-win-followers-women-men-sports-stars-politicans-academics.html

David Beckham? Though he is old hat nowadays.

Yes you are probably right.
So WHERE is the image of a good, strong man?

violent not violet

I think there are men who feel 'emasculated'. They have a view of what men should be like i.e. strong, in charge and 'breadwinners'. If they are not these things then maybe they try to make up for this perceived 'lack' of male role through extra aggressive an sexist behaviour? I am NOT excusing sexist and violet behaviour. Just trying to think my way through why some men behave in this way.

As a young teenager (13-14) in the evenings I was allowed to go out I was either at organised events such as a youth club, guides etc or at friends homes. From about 14-15 (mid 60s) I was going to music venues/pubs and parties . On one occasion my dad did come and find me, at about midnight, at the stage door of Kingston Granada where I was hoping for autographs from the bands we had been to see!

Early last century and again in the 1970s, women were fighting for equal rights. Yes, we got somewhere.
But the barriers put up have got more subtle (the 'glass ceiling' for instance) and the insulting behaviour more explicit....

And I cannot express my disgust at the organised trafficking of vulnerable girls as an industry.

Sometimes I thank God I grew up when I did. "Helicopter" parenting was unheard of, and in spite of having a largely unhindered learning curve, I grew up pretty unscathed, AND I went to Catholic schools where I had a lot of exposure to nuns and priests! Of course we were all pretty much unaware of the covert grooming perpetuated by some clergy. Priests generally appeared to be imbued with a saint like status and it was a foregone conclusion that anyone who chose that path in life would undoubtedly be an exemplary person. Ditto with Jimmy Saville, albeit he behaved and looked like a creep, but all that fund raising. Came at a hell of a price

In retrospect I have no regrets I wasn't a precocious early teen, in that my experience with the opposite sex was very limited I think possibly my group of friends, that I still have today, were not the ones that were up to all sorts, possibly viewed as "drips" by those who did get into early sexual relationships only to find themselves on an early marriage path that didn't always work out. I was in my later teens before I started dating and possibly more savvy to cope with it at that stage. I think all my boyfriends, not that many, were ok and never had to deal with too much in the way of psychological manipulation. I do remember encountering low level every day sexism in the work place, I think I was 19 or 20 when page 3 of The Sun was launched and can still remember the feeling that my sex was being objectified by these women and annoyingly those very women who posed for these pictures misconstrued, females who didn't like what they were doing as jealous. As far as I was concerned they didn't look any better than me, (then) but they had no idea how adversely they affected all of us. Try explaining to an office of men that being compared to a pin up is an uncomfortable feeling, they rarely got that and yes it is horrible to see that sort of thing being played out now, at say a football match, are we any further forward?

Conversely, aside from the small percentage of girls who would have posed for a publication such as The Sun, out of the Pandora's Box of modern day technology we now have wholesale sexualised images offered up for all and sundry on all manner of social media sites. I ask myself why so many girls are so indiscreet and self publicising these days, is it down to bad role models, Kim Kardashian? and a whole host of other nobodies they seek to emulate, I don't really get this "in your face look at me" side of life. I also don't understand going out dressed in next to nothing on a pub crawl or the like,l sometimes ending in being comatose on a pavement. Surely there should be an onus on a responsibility for your own behaviour?

Grooming is probably one of the most abhorrent aspects that a young person can fall victim today and often it is insidious and doesn't always occur in the hanging out late a night on the streets scenario, although it's not as if teenagers hanging round streets is anything new. There was an interesting letter in The Times yesterday from a Lord Singh of Wimbledon who stated that it is a lesser known fact that Hindu and Sikh girls have also been groomed by Muslim men. He felt that their attitudes to females needs to be addressed and discussed in their own communities. I don't quite know what the answer is to cultural behaviour that has been borne overseas and is then transposed to the host country, when those that live within those communities will confine themselves to an ingrained way of life that is possibly centuries old and will have a massive disconnect with western values and will eventually prove detrimental to social cohesion generally.

What do you mean by backlash AlieOxon?
That men in general are rebeling against it?

When I was a teenager in a big city in the early 60s, I was out and about all the time! Nightowl we have the same sort of memories.

Yes, we were far less sheltered that children today - I wonder if our parents didn't see the risks, or were there not so many, or were they just unreported? With global media, we know so much of the horrors of the world, including our little corner of it, that it must be difficult for parents not to be over protective.

12-14 where I lived if you were out in the evening it was at Guides or other organised activities or classes! Dad always collected us. It was soooo embarrassing!
gracesgran's suggestion "Men need to talk to men about this and tell them what they think of this behaviour" is excellent. This applies equally to all men -Asian, football supporters and the rest. So we need:
1) A multi faceted approach aiming to promote safer behaviour resulting from increased confidence in girls.
2) A change of attitude in men (gasp!)
3) Constantly reviewed and updated training for "authorities"-(SW, Education & Police) to take girls and Mums seriously when they express concerns.

Simples (NOT)

'the legacy of our feminist generation'?

I see it as a complete backlash - and worse!

Asian men do have other men to talk to.

In the evenings.

When I was a teenager in the 70s, almost no one was out in town before the age of 14.

I listened to the piece on the football chanting too and did feel that the "this won't change until we have more women in the boardroom" line, while not actually blaming women is still laying all the responsibility on them.

The men who chant are no better than the Indian interviewed re the rape on the bus who totally blamed the women. They are cowards and bullies and their insecurity is showing. This cowardly view makes them feel better instead of them making their own lives make them feel better and then, in a pack, they decide they are big enough to bully. Men need to talk to men about this and tell them what they think of this behaviour.

When was this golden age when girls between 12 and 15 were largely at home? My parents were caring but following on from a largely unsupervised childhood (and how often have we reminisced on here about those halcyon days where we played outside from morn till night), I was all over the place with friends as a young teenager. My parents would have been horrified if they had known what I was doing - hitch hiking, meeting boys on the park, missing the last bus and walking home, etc. I think we were far less sheltered than teenagers today. The problem lies with the attitudes of young men, not the behaviour of the girls.

Although I do take your point Penstemmon about young women's attitudes to themselves and what they have to do to be acceptable to themselves, their peers, and to men. If this is the legacy of our feminist generation, where did it all go so wrong?

I agree Pentstemmon.
And whereas before, girls between the ages of 12-15 were largely at home, now they are often out and about. And they are being preyed on.

So true. Back to my OP. I despair!

I find it very difficult to reconcile the fact that I do think girls/women should be free to make choices about dress without fear of being seen as 'easy game' for unscrupulous youth/men or on occasions not very clever youth/men. However I also think that if/ when young women/girls are not aware that the image they present when they dress/make up/behave in certain ways can send an ' I'm easy' message to men/youths they are placed in a dangerous position. Its that rights and responsibilities balance again!
Work also needs to be done with boys/youths & men about respect for women and seeing women as people not bodies. Just been listening on the news about all the sexist chanting at football grounds. If men perceive their chanting of 'get your tits out for the boys' aimed at a female physio attending a player as a bit of harmless banter rather than disrespectful attitudes to women then emotionally immature young girls are always going to be in danger from unscrupulous men, those needing to feel powerful and the stupid ones too.

I believe it is illegal for parents, foster carers or residential social workers to physically restrain young people to prevent them from leaving the home. As I understand it, you cannot lock your own children in a bedroom or lock the front door and neither can you do so with looked-after children. (Although I do recall our son's Asian maths teacher - when we expressed concern that our son was not doing his homework properly - saying that we should lock him in the bedroom until he'd done it! My husband, who is Asian and also brought up in a similarly "strict" environment, explained that that was not an acceptable action).

If the police have been alerted to the possibility that underage girls (or indeed anyone) are being threatened, sexually exploited and physically abused, these are serious crimes and there is a judicial process to investigate and prosecute them, which only the police can initiate.

Yes. The lines of behaviour have loosened considerably since I was young. Attitudes to alcohol and the resultant behaviours have a lot to answer for. A night out in any University town (for example only!) demonstrates this. Girls throwing up and/or peeing in the streets, rowdy testosterone fuelled behaviour by young men. A&E any weekend night reeks of alcohol. Police stationed in some A&E units etc etc etc. Real root and branch look at morality required. Wont happen. Too uncool and old fashioned but until we somehow really look at the situation the "authorities" will be struggling against this tide of dangerous behaviours and the victims it throws up. (Sorry- got a bit metaphorical there!) Meanwhile the predators circle...................