Water cannon for London

Cees - you take victim blaming to new depths. He was walking home from work ffs and was trying to find a way round the demo. Silly silly stupid man for walking backwards into that policeman.

No, I didn't say that, Eleothan.

Aka did.

Ana you said:

the average poor family have a roof over their heads, free access to the NHS, the benefits of free education up till 18, they are shod and clothed, usually have a bigger TV than I have, a mobile phone, access to food and drink and to be frank could all do with losing a few pounds before the NHS collapses under the obesity epidemic."

Although I accept that people have free access to the NHS (at least for the time being) and education, many people are having great difficulty feeding their families, heating their homes and providing their children with adequate clothing and shoes. They may well have a roof over their heads (though sometimes this is bed and breakfast with no access to cooking and laundry facilities), but many are living in appalling and insecure housing. What I absolutely disagree with is your contention that because things were worse years ago, somehow this means that there are no really poor people now.

I don't see how you can inadvertently walk into a protest. As I've said before, they tend to be noisy, and I would personally avoid something that could potentially be risky. Of course I've read about Ian Tomlinson, but he did rather put himself in the line of fire so to speak.

If we can send men to the moon and waste millions of pounds on vanity projects we should be able to care for our children.

Hear hear

When - exactly. But of course, we could go the whole hog towards a police state and impose a curfew then innocents could stay at home and if you went out, you would, by definition, deserve what happened to you

Ceesnan have you not read about or seen news of passersby (not protesters) getting caught up and injured during protest marches that they inadvertently walked into? I certainly wouldn't want children or elderly, frail people being swept off their feet by water cannons whilst they were minding their own business. These things don't discriminate - everybody within range, protesting or not, gets driven back by them, some getting injured in the process.

And Eloe I do actually agree with you, of course you are allowed to be unreasonable.

Make up your mind Eloe how can you 'absolutely disagree' in one post and then admit 'of course poverty now isn't the same as poverty 'back then'?

That was my point

I'm just wondering what a frail person would be doing in a protest? Obviously I couldn't speak for everyone (and come to think of it I would be shot down in flames if I tried!) but surely someone who is not too nimble would stay away from demos and protestors. I know if I found myself caught in that sort of situation I would be in the nearest shop/cafe in two minutes and stay there till it was safe to leave. Protest marches arn't the quietest of things either, so I'm sure you would have time to find a place of safety. My vote would be for water canon too by the way - if protesters/rioters don't disperse when ordered to and are warned of the consequences then be it on their own heads. I too have family in the police force and my sympathy lies with them.

Das Kapital? Where's that link? Must get my eyes tested. Having seen innocent passers by harmed by heavy handed police officers and protesters alike, I'm against the use of water cannon, which don't discriminate when knocking all and sundry over. Anyone who is that bit frail wouldn't stand a chance.

(saying toffs bad, that is)

Hmm. Jen might have come a bit close.

Your statement roses that yours, Ana's and Aka's are "voices of reason", thus implying that other voices are not, is I think a bit presumptuous.

Just because you don't happen to agree with opinions different from your own, does not necessarily mean those opinions are not valid or reasoned.

Of course poverty now isn't the same as poverty "back then". Things move on. People died of TB, polio and the like. Is it reasonable to say "Why's everyone moaning about the delays in getting knee replacements - count yourself lucky you're not spending your life in an iron lung."

I don't think anyone here has said "toffs bad - poor good".

Thanks Ana and AKA for other 'voices of reason'.I think if some others are only going to send endless links to newspapers/ tv programmes/Das Kapital and so on then there is no point and this thread will go on forever.There will always be some hardship in our country, and thanks to immigration [both legal and illegal] a strain is now put on our schools and the NHS and the benefit and housing. Under the 'good times ' [hollow laugh] of the last Labour government, there were still tons of unemployed, food banks galore [much used, not only by the poor for whatever reason, but also by drug addicts.]I remember some kids at school coming in scruffy clothes, no breakfast and too small shoes too[in the 1950's] they had feckless parents and we felt sorry for them. Most of us were from poor families in my class, but we had free school meals [like today] and free school shoes [given as tokens, not benefits.]We had the NHS [like now] also. Our parents didn't drink, and whatever money we had was spent on food and keeping us clean.We would all now be classed as under the poverty line[no tv and no holidays.]If you are poor and have good parents you will be alright [same today as back then] if you have feckless /drunken/drug addict parents you will not be.It's no good harking back to the 20's or 30's, because poverty now is not the same as poverty back then.
All the services now are over-stretched as the numbers wanting help has gone up due to immigration and care in the community.Things will get better, if we do well economically as a country and get on top of immigration at the same time.You can't simply say 'toffs bad, poor good' as not only is it simplistic but is not even true.I think I have had to say all I want to say on this subject [and water cannon]. My book has just arrived [The Gallery of Vanished Husbands] from Book club [after me moaning that I hadn't got one!]So I am off for a nice realxing read.

Oh, I do hope so.

When is it going to happen to Boris? Will there be photographs?

jendurham I wonder if Boris knew about that poor man? Can he cancel the order?

I watched that on catch-up last night Eloethan. Absolutely horrific!

I absolutely disagree Aka. Teachers are reporting that children are coming in to school badly nourished, with inadequate clothing, shoes that are too small, etc., etc.

Many families are living in damp, cold and badly maintained private rented accommodation that they cannot afford to heat properly and with mold (which can be very injurious to health) growing down the walls.

Did you see the documentary the other day looking at the lives of three young children? A 14 year old girl was seriously ill with leukaemia and receiving regular treatment which had caused her to lose all bodily hair. Her dad had to stay at home to look after her and to transport her to and from the hospital - sometimes five days a week. They were absolutely living on the breadline and the cost of petrol was eating into the money that was available to them.

I don't see the point of harking back to the "old days" when poverty and an early death were commonplace. Who wants to return to that? If we can send men to the moon and waste millions of pounds on vanity projects we should be able to care for our children.

www.opendemocracy.net/node/83686

For you, Aka.

Good post Aka

My point is still valid whether your blood is curdled or cold Jen. My father's sister died of TB before there was an NHS, but they didn't live in a slum. Didn't one or more of the Bronte sister die from TB and they weren't in a workhouse.

Things have changed or haven't you noticed?

Instead of living in hovels, having no medical help available to them, keeping a pig in the basement, lacking shoes and schooling, and going to bed hungry the average poor family have a roof over their heads, free access to the NHS, the benefits of free education up till 18, they are shod and clothed, usually have a bigger TV than I have, a mobile phone, access to food and drink and to be frank could all do with losing a few pounds before the NHS collapses under the obesity epidemic.

What passes for poverty in the 21st century would have been seen as a life if luxury when Kier Hardy founded the Labour Party.

What haven't I responded to, Ana?