Are you proud to be British ?

Thanks, EG, I missed the dark ages series but have heard that it gave a more positive view of that time. I'll try and catch up with it. I have found some of the historical novels about that period interesting - Tim Severin's Viking series, for example, but there are many more.

noodles, I was not speaking of the majority of English people, just of the likes of thatbags who has no problem with calling Scots, Irish and Welsh nationalists as weirdos . It was unkind of me but I was surprised to read such an attack and responded .

PapaOscar There was quite recently a very good TV series about the Dark Ages, which showed them as a lot less dark than has been believed. It is no longer on Iplayer, but there are a few clips from it.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p011j1xs

Interesting points, Jess & Aka, about 1066 and later English domination. If only we knew more about the so-called dark ages after the Romans pulled out. England must have been a real shambles thereafter, and even post-1066 many parts of what had become England were lawless and subject to the prededations of Celtic neighbours and others, not to mention all that Norman ethnic-cleansing.

The word 'Celtic' is used erroneously to define the Scots, Irish and Welsh. But in effect the Celtic world at its apex covered much of western and central Europe, it was not politically unified nor was there any substantial central source of cultural influence. So yes, the Romans may well have destroyed much of it's literature, but where their influence did not reach much still remains.

Of course in an age before the printing press and universal education much of this was religious based and written by monks, etc ..as was the case in England too (if we take them as 'non celts'). The Book of Kells is just one articulately fine example of this.

I remember reading, Aka, that the Romans almost totally destroyed most of the evidence of ancient British Celtic culture because it offended them, and that later accounts, perhaps often Apochraphal, were rendered in Latin, Anglo-Saxon, French or whatever the language of the day was. I was trying to account for the fierceness of Celtic pride. Perhaps it comes back to pent-up resentments stoked up by nostalgia for a past that maybe never was, a bit like the Arthurian or Robin Hood mythology of later centuries.

You raise an interesting point in your final paragraph Jess

The 2012 Olympics made me feel proud to be British. I would never have believed that we would make such a good job. Going to the Olympic park for the first day of the athletics it was astounding to see the beautiful buildings, the stunning wildflower meadows and the delightful volunteers. A tribute to UK project management and professionalism.
There are many other things I am not proud of. Whinging, the tabloid press, materialism and inequality for starters.
The past is very mixed isn't it and so is the present.
Australians, I have noticed, are very determinedly patriotic with a constant repetition of what a wonderful country it is.
I think countries like Australia and Wales feel the need to assert their patriotism because they have felt used and abused by England in the past. England has not been the underdog since 1066, has it, when bloodthirsty Normal culture swept all else before it? So no need to keep boosting the collective self-esteem.

Lack of written Celtic literature? You're joking of course

I think I meant 'lack of a Celtic written tradition', but it was an early-morning effort!

Interesting questions, RQ. I have never understood why fierce Celtic pride is considered quite so acceptable, whereas the Ango-Saxon equivalent is often derided. Perhaps its to do with the lack of a Celtic linguistic tradition, more spoken about than written down, and romanticised through myth and legend. Whereas Anglo-Saxon life was perhaps more basic, down-to-earth and, in due course, written down and recorded in their own language as they became dominant.

The little Englander, or little Briton, syndrome reflects I suppose the sometimes inward-looking nature of island communities. Difficult to reconcile that, however, with British world-wide involvements over the ages.

PS it was the British Empire, not the English Empire.

Little Englanders? What are they?

Why is it OK to be a proud Welsh person, a proud Scot but not OK to be proud to be English? Why 'little'?

Not wanting to continue the argument, but just curious.

Elegran

[quite right]

Echo that, Elegran.

There are those within each of the four elements who feel that they would like more equality - mostly with their fellow-countrymen/women and between social groups more than between the partner countries.

Could the discussion please continue without one poster attacking another. Opinions can differ without bloodshed, real or virtual.

I would say that the recent history of these four little joined-together countries has been very amicable, apart from the Irish troubles, which, please God, have now subsided.

The past is littered with strife, but so is that of every other country.

Don't worry, noodles. I didn't. I had to look it up actually and it seems to have been used incorrectly. It would apply better to an English nationalist isolationist. We can take that in our stride, we proud Brits.

You are missing a lot, then Noodles. There are many rewarding threads on GN. Don't generalise from the example of a part of one thread. If you ignore them all because you don't like one, you are very much the loser.

Little Englander? Rude and unpleasant, but that's pretty much what I expect from this sort of thread. Gratuitiously nasty comments are why I seldom spend time on Gransnet these days.

annieb, you'll be interested to know that the part of Scottish Britain I live in was Brythonic-speaking at one time. You'll also know that Brythonic was the linguistic precursor to modern Welsh but I mention it because others may not.

If your outrage hat comment was to me thatbags, I assure you I most certainly am not outraged , not even a teeny bit outraged, little englanders amuse me .

Proud of England and GB? In general yes, but certainly not of the Hollywood-style romanticised versions of history presented as facts. Proud that a small island group of people managed to rise above chaos and turmoil to influence the world, mostly in a benign way. Not proud, of course, of the casualties that littered the path to that position but as has been said, you cannot change history, only try and learn from it. I suppose the acid test is how other people see us, and I get the impression that most people regard us reasonably favourably. But I am not complacent, there is much darkness in our past and even today there are many issues that cause concern. There is no perfection.

We must meet sometime soon. I brought a stinking cough home from the wee man's territory. Must not pass it on to you.

Yes, soop, exactly like that