Single mother by choice - is it ethical?

Nothing wrong with it when it happens naturally, nelliem, which, as the falling birth rates among 'westerners' shows, does happen as living standards rise and as health care is put in place that reduces infant mortality and cares for society's old people – so that people don't have to have lots of kids as insurance for their old age. My view is simply that I don't think politicians or other (usually holier than thou) activists should dictate what they think is right for the rest of us. Talk about it, yes. Encourage thinking, yes. Tell us how to behave, no.

I was widowed in the seventies , our daughters were seven and five . We were part of a large loving extended family and had the love and support of the church community . None of this took away the wistful look on the faces of our girls when their cousins were hugged by their fathers and large family gatherings just heightened the sense of loss of that missing parent - not speaking of grief. It gave our daughters too much responsibility too, something they took on themselves , they wanted to protect me no matter I assured them I didn't need protecting. Our girls are now 43 and 45 so I can say with quite a few years of experience - children need fathers just as much as children need mothers .

And on a selfish note, parents evenings at school were hell, racing up and down staircases from classroom to classroom to get around every teacher whilst my sisters and friends shared the list , I never failed to speak to every teacher and always came home exhausted

AAman

I did say I was playing devils advocate.

I will make it clear that I was in no way suggesting that family size be enforced. That is unworkable, as is stopping benefit for more than a set number of children. That affects the welfare of the children who did not ask to be born.
I do have serious issues with those organisations, who refuse to allow contraception.

I suggest working at parental replacement numbers.

I was just putting forward the idea that with finite resources, to use more than your share of these resources in this case by having lot more children than everyone else might be considered greedy.

What is wrong with rationing scarce resources?

I agree, AAAman, that authoritarian rules are not a good idea. You are right to find fault with my use of 'wanton'.

We should stop thinking of people as burdens, as costs to the rest of us. Anyone can be made out to be a burden. That way lies Naziism.

Every child costs the state a lot of money in terms of our free education system NHS etc.
Free at the point of use =/= Free
These costs have no bearing at all on whether or not the families are in work or on benefits.
Part of the difficulty here is that many ''hard working'' people are paid so little that the state [Us] has to subsidize the share holders' profits so those employees can make ends just about meet
How about just making sure that any persons, married couples or singles just produce enough children to replace themselves.
Sounds like a good idea to me - just like the =
*..one child per family law in China, resulting in massive numbers of abortions and infanticides of females, and now lots of kidnapping of young women for forced marriages
*.. Mr Gandhi's (alleged) regime of forced reproductive sterilization in India.
Will rich people be able to bribe - [Ooops, buy] - exemptions?
And what about the religious, e.g. certain groups which ban contraceptive use?
On second thoughts ......

wanton
ˈadjective
1.(of a cruel or violent action) deliberate and unprovoked.
2.(especially of a woman) sexually immodest or promiscuous.
Phew !
''Judge not, lest ye be judged. For with the judgement that ye judge,ye shall be judged.''

Ok! A bit of "Devils advocacy" coming up.

I do not quite see why it can be regarded as any more or less "ethical" or "selfish" to deliberately have one child as a single mum, than it is to have several within a two parent family.

As ThatBags says most living organisms have a biological urge to reproduce and I can very much understand that, but does the urge (or carelessness) to go on producing offspring after that become a selfish act?

There are families both in and out of work who have far more children than the average. It could be argued that these large families are "greedy" as they take up more than their fair share of state money as a family.

Every child costs the state a lot of money in terms of our free education system NHS etc. These costs have no bearing at all on whether or not the families are in work or on benefits.

How about just making sure that any persons, married couples or singles just produce enough children to replace themselves. It could be argued that to have more than "replacement numbers" of children is just being greedy and self indulgent with what the state provides.

I'll leave it all for you to sort out, AAAHappyMan, as you obviously have such strong ideas on how society should be structured..

I suppose it all depends on who is going to fund the wanton reproduction

RQ
I so much agree with your 1st point, tho' I'd say 'fair' rather than bountiful. If your, and my, wish were to come about in that respect, perhaps we would be income tax free - but not VAT free.
Oh dear - it's a 'whim' to want a baby?
Does '' loving partner'' include a female partner - I do hope so.
What level and type of ''loving'' qualifies, and where will the Test Centres be?
My point was WE are part of that support network - or should be.
No child is an island, ask not whose babes are crying, they are in part, OURS, and soon will care for us as we should care for them now. [And their mothers]

After all, I'm thinking, we wouldn't call 'wanton' reproduction in any other animal selfish; we'd just accept it as how life happens.

I'm trying not to waffle here. Let me just say that there's a lot of discussion among animal behaviourists at the moment about whether other animals have self-consciousness at all. I think the feeling is growing that we are not so different from other animals as we like to think we are.

I just realised that I didn't answer jess's question either. I think you may be right, jess, that some people want a baby and don't really think through the follow-on. But I'd guess it was always thus without even including "accidental" pregnancies before contraception (and after it). I'm not sure I'd call wishing to fulfil such a fundamental life urge selfish. I know what you and baubles mean but somehow I'm not comfortable with that description of a normal animal urge which some people are apparently less able to resist, or which they feel more strongly than average perhaps.

I don't think it's a choice I would ever have made, but I would have been taking other considerations into account, such as possible disapproval from family.

This thread has popped up again and I realise that I didn't answer bags' question. I do agree of course that the urge to reproduce is present and that's all I really meant, that we are satisfying our own urges by having children, so that is selfish, to a degree.

charleygirl

I totally agree rosequartz.

Are you suggesting we should pay more tax, AAAHappyMan? Perhaps if very rich people and companies paid the tax they owe and are at present avoiding we can become the bountiful state you envisage.

I for one do not wish to pay more tax on my small pension to indulge the whim of a woman who wishes to have a child without the support of a loving partner.

What an atomized society Britain has become, gone are the days of Aunties and Uncles who were friends of the family and were as close and supportive as blood relatives. Gone are the jobs where men relied on their mates and buddies to watch for their safety as they looked after them in return and so strengthened the sense of community and common=wealth.
Children are OUR future, if a woman has a child ''on her own'' should we not be there in the background to offer a helping hand.
Less criticizm and more support should be our slogan.
We can do that by paying our taxes to finance such things as the NHS, Health visitors and good schools and housing for all, not only the greedy rich who have just gobbled up OUR Royal Mail and will soon take over OUR NHS.

Do you not think bags that some people "want a baby" very badly and maybe don't think that babies only last a few months and then they will be also getting a child, a teenager and an adult who will have to put up with them (and vice versa) lock, stock and barrel, without the balancing effect , diluting effect or backup of another parent?

No grandparents either Jess as they were all deceased. Stepdad provided a roof over my head but no emotional support. I really envy my friends who had close relationships with their fathers. Even if a mother does not want a relationship with her child's father she should not deny her child unless there is a risk of harm !

I'm intrigued by the expression "an element of selfishness in having children", baubles. I'm not sure I understand. The urge to reproduce is present in all life forms, consciously or unconsciously, is it not?

DD has a friend (X) whose partner is also female. X asked a male friend to donate sperm and had a baby which the two women are bringing up. X then asked same male friend for another donation. He said no. I don't know the whole story but it sounds as if unexpected emotional issues made their presence felt for the man.

Must ask DD what the sequel to the story is. She told me some time ago.

Father was cooking tea, I meant.

Single fathers have a rough time too. In my street there is one, working full time and trying to bring up three young boys. The fire engine was called the other week when one of them accidentally set fire to the living room curtains while he was cooking their tea.

I know what you mean seasider I only have one or two fleeting memories of my father. I also know that if I had not had my nana around, as a second parent, it would have been a very different childhood. Nana acted as a balancing element.

I have never known my biological father though I did have a stepfather who was very distant. My mum never told anyone who he was and I have never been able to find anything out. I still feel like a piece of the jigsaw is missing. I want to tell my own children about him. I want to know if I am like him but sadly I never will. I urge all single mums to at least keep some details or photos for their children but of course with a sperm donor that is not possible. My mum really loved me and looked after me but all parents owe their child a sense of identity.

Reading some of the above posts re sperm donors, I am beginning to think it is a very selfish thing to decide to do. They are putting their own wants and desires before those of their child. They may do an excellent job of bringing up a child but surely the child will have a desire and in fact a right to know who his/her father is?