May i ask a question?

I used to wonder why Irish was a separate category on ethnic monitoring forms. Apparently it is because they are only group of immigrants that have done significantly worse than other groups in terms of health etc. A reflection, possibly, of that large group of exploited men who came here to build modern motorways etc in the 1960s and 70s.

Yes Gnan. Plus, the dreaded diversity forms ensure that faith/non faith is recorded. That is so helpful when trying to place vulnerable children in appropriate foster placements. I know I know, it sounds obvious, but honestly, as with the introduction of race/drink driving/sex discrimination laws - it does help to name it, and public opinion often follows on.

Monitoring ethnicity allows us to see how disproportionately black youths are stopped and searched, charged, convicted and imprisoned. They are more likely to be found guilty and given longer sentences than white youths for the same crimes.

It would be wonderful if skin colour/race/faith/nationality didn't matter,but it does.
So far as I'm aware, my heritage is white British, so I haven't experienced racism. As a woman, I have experienced sexism and in recent years have developed some understanding of what it's like to have mobility and other problems. I have never been racially abused, or treated differently because of my colour. The closest I've come to this is when an elderly woman in a remote town in Tunisia began to shout abuse at my husband. She was reacting to photographs all over the papers that day of a funeral party in Iraq that had been devastated by US bombing and the fact we were white and English speaking was enough for her to direct anger and distress our way.
I've never had people making monkey noises at me, calling me offensive names or attacking me in the street, simply because of the colour of my skin. My children have never been suspended from school after they finally snapped as a result of persistent racism, and hit someone who'd been tormenting them for years.
I had the task of completing diversity forms for every child and family member during the course of work. It was tedious, time consuming and I grumbled along with others about this. But - I echo what Eloethan said (16.52) about its necessity

Or class! or political viws?

Quite.

But if we stop grouping people according to race and ethnicity and just see them as people then we wouldn't need such information.

Unfortunately Anniebach I think that skin colour is important. That's not to say it should be, but it is.

Documentation that requires, amongst other things, information regarding ethnicity do so to try and establish whether different ethnic groups have proportional access to resources such as education, housing, healthcare. etc., and if they are being disproportionately penalised in some way (for instance, within the judicial system).

Though perfectly sound in evolutionary terms since it's difficult to make vitamin D in your skin in northern climes if you have a lot of melanin in your skin. So the northern tribes ditched it and the tropical and sub-tropical tribes kept it. Simple.

Yep. White is weird

Originally weren't we all black? After all we originated in Africa?Im sure thatbags can confirm or deny!

weren't the miners safety lamps invented by Humphrey Davie? Or even Davy.?

Vampirequeen, I have an awful feeling you and I are speaking of two different things, I was just saying skin colour isn't important and should never be regarded as such . I didn't read the thread which was deleted but realise what name was used, it is in no way acceptable , it offends, insults and hurts

Apparently, a very large proportion of Americans who pride themselves on being white have negro blood in them, as the result of slave owners making their slaves pregnant. And there have been examples of black children being born to couples who appear to be white, and vice versa.
The apartheid rules were not just cruel, they were plain daft.

I don't think anyone is saying you can't describe yourself as black, white or pink with green spots if that's what you want to do but there a certain words that are simply not acceptable. No one would thing it was ok to use the N word. So why is it OK to call Pakistanis by the generally accepted insulting shortened version.

'Bluebell I know apartheid was exceedingly evil. The silly refered to judging people by a colour chart. The fact that grown people (in this case 'White' men - mostly men) could possibly think that a mixed race child who just happened to have paler skin than his parents could be thought white while they were black and therefore inferior is silly / ridiculous / pathetic / stupid etc. The decision to separate people and treat them differently purely on this basis - there are no words for that.

Vampirequeen, I dislike people being labelled , for me I think nationality is all that is required on those forms. My point on black or white is rather like me choosing to say I am right handed because I do use my right hand but I am so left handed it would be rather silly, and why would I choose to, and the same for anyone who is very dark skinned, why would they want to deny they have dark skin and say I am white,

SA during apartheid was a different thing , it meant where you could walk, live, work, who you married, which school you could attended . It was evil, all racism is evil no matter the country

Yes that, good points - no waffle, but what matters in Pen's post

pen, just wanted to say how useful I found your post of 18:46 yesterday.

Iasm64 What a horrible experience for your colleague.

All sorts of strange ideas about the origins and meanings of things float about in the ethernet. Just because it is something one can access on one's computer doesn't make it true. When I was doing some home tutoring, I insisted that my students checked and correlated at least three sources, whether internet or books, before they used the information they had found.

Absent - I have now googled nitty gritty, you're right. I believed what I'd been told by a colleague of West Indian, therefore slave, origins. He was a lovely guy, and must have believed it himself or wouldn't have passed it on.

Overt racism had been part of his life. We worked an area that had been entirely white, until the arrival of the Pakistani community who came to work in the mills. On one occasion he was pinned against the wall, by a very angry man who was screaming racist abuse in his face. When we 'de-briefed' he said his major fear at the time was that he'd lose his temper, and retaliate physically. He said this had got him into trouble when he was at school, so he'd learned to control his temper.

Ask any Asian whether he or she finds the term "Paki" offensive and I think you'll find that they do, and by now most non-Asian people should be aware that the term is not a respectful one.

If, as Harrigran suggested, in India Hindus use it to describe Muslims, that makes it no less offensive. Such Indians might be surprised to find that in the eyes of UK racists they too are "Pakis".

Thank you, Vampirequeen - I would have taken issue with Anniebach's post myself but didn't want to give anyone yet another reason to have a go at me!

Anniebach...I refer you back to my post about my friend's grandson. His skin is white, his eyes are blue and his hair is ginger. His mother is mixed race and his father is white. If you saw him and didn't know his heritage you would say he was white but a South African friend reliably informs me that under the old apartheid system he would have been coloured even though he's whiter than most white people.

At some point in his life his parents will have to decide as they will have to fill out one of those 'ethnicity' questionnaires. Technically I suppose he's mixed race but this is the problem with thinking in terms of race or country to describe someone. Why does he have to be labelled in terms of race? Why can't he just be a little boy?

Just to muddy the waters even further, his grandfather was born in Zimbabwe but his family moved to Jamaica when he was 2 years old and then to England when he was 4 years old. Does that make him Zimbabwean, Jamaican or, as his education and memories are all from here, English?

Thanks harrigran for explaining the origin of Geordie. I have learnt something tonight.