May i ask a question?

It doesn't have to be all Pakistani people who find it offensive- it seems to me that the family who ran that shop may have been trying to draw the sting out of the word.

But Bags many do so it's best avoided

I'm not talking about actual crassness, bluebell, just unclear areas, e.g. where the same word or phrase is used in different ways in different areas so is open to 'misuse' in some contexts but not others.

Also, if someone genuinely is crass, you can tell them so without being offended. I do.

Bags - it's to wrong foot the person you have just offended and make them look in the wrong

Bags - it's also the excuse that people use - I didn't mean, I'm not a racist/ sexist etc, can't you take a joke etc etc

I've said before that the Pakistani family that ran a shop where I lived in Oxfordshire called it "The Paki Shop" so clearly not all people of Pakistani origin find the abbreviation offensive.

Bags - completely disagree - that excuses thoughtless people from taking responsibility for their own crassness

Bluebell - our posts crossed.

bluebell, actually sometimes it's true – the taking of offence being the taker's problem rather than the other person's, especially if it is obvious from context that offence is not intended. I think is possible to be too sensitive to flippant or careless remarks.

My dad always told us: "It is a greater sin to take offence where none is intended than to give offence." I think he was right.

If Pakistani people find the term offensive, then it is. It is used in a derogatory way by racist thugs. I don't know where Poppy1 has been for the last twenty years, possibly in France, but it is certainly not an acceptable term in England (or on this forum).
I chose an Irish name by deed poll and I am quite happy to laugh at Irish jokes but I have not been subjected to racist abuse.
I am glad African Americans are proud to be black - how different from some Asian races where people pay small fortunes to get their skin whitened. Some adverts for spouses specify that they must be pale skinned.

Bang on, vamp.

Moved - how dare you blame people who are the subject of offensive language for daring to be offended?

Vampire - I do agree with not automatically describing someone by the colour of their skin but equally there needs to be acceptable ways to do this of its necessary/appropriate - eg for ethnic monitoring purposes. Moved - you have completely missed the point - Brit and the abbreviation poppy used aren't remotely comparable

Interesting Bags but not sure I agree. In apartheid South Africa, very 'light skinned' mixed race people would try and pass as white for obvious reasons. Sales of skin lightening cream are popular amongst some ethnic groups and I think I remember reading something about the Indian caste system and lighter skins being more desirable. All of that is because of the centuries of discrimination that 'black' people faced ( and still do) . Once 'black is beautiful' started, acknowledging and honouring the 'black' part of a mixed race heritage was encouraged . Being 'black' is not just about the colour of your skin and I thought the term mixed race was meant to cover all that.

My white friend is married to a very, very dark skinned man (the black that is almost purple). Their daughters have beautiful coffee coloured skin. One of their grandchildren (white father) is porcelain white with blue eyes and very tightly curled ginger hair. What is he?

It's time we stopped using race as a description. People are just people.

I didn't see the deleted post but do have some sympathy for Poppy if she used the abbreviation I assume she did as it is simply an abbreviation. Surely it is only the context in which it is used which makes it offensive? I am a Brit and don't have any problems with that abbreviation, my father was a Scot, no problem there. If the abbreviation in itself is considered offensive then perhaps it is the person being offended who has a problem?

My father was proud to be called a Geordie when he came down south from South Shields. Serious question: why are people from that area called Geordies ? Is it short for anything ?

Your post at 16:54, ana, is interesting. Why is it always one way round even when the person concerned is not actually black in the sense of being dark skinned? As I ask that question, I know the answer – an answer anyway – it's because there is shame attached to being white and pride attached to being black. This is because of history and because of still current racism. We human beings have a long way to go before we shed all that.

We could just call English people English, Welsh people Welsh, Irish people Irish?

Maybe, annie because the English gave these names and/or stereotypes to the nationalities they rules over. There are lots of others on the list.
Irish people who laugh at "thick Irish" jokes - what choice do they have? Get told Irish people are always looking for a fight? Irish people often have a great sense of humour but that should not mean they have to put up with that stuff and laugh at it.
There are many incredibly sexist jokes about women. The worst one I ever heard was a rigmarole about someone having their "gender reassigned". The punchline was about having most of his brain removed and his mouth widened. Not funny. But women are under a lot of pressure to join in and laugh when men tell these jokes.
The only one I can think of re English is "limeys" - not derogatory, based on the navy giving lime juice to prevent scurvy.

Why would it be an insult to the parent who is not white-skinned? Why not the other way round? I was just pondering on *NfkDumpling's obvervations and am certainly not taking this any further!

If a person is of mixed race and their skin is dark then why would they choose to say ' I am white' if their skin is not white and they described themselves as white then I would think they are in some form of denial and surely an insult to the parent who is not white skinned . Would it not be rather like a red haired person saying I am blond

If the Irish are Paddys, the Welsh are Taffs, the Scots are Jocks, what are the English? Never thought of this before

Read the forum guidelines, which tell us what is acceptable and what is not.

Nobody who's half black and half white ever seems to want to be called white, though.