The Golliwog

Dorsetpennt, yes, I would stand up for something I thought was wrong, if the cause was for a group, say, which couldn't do it for themselves, such as children or people with learning difficulties, or animals. I would support other causes I believed in if those affected wanted my support. I wouldn't presume to start a campaign on behalf of a group of people just because I, personally, felt offence had or might have been caused.

what? Campaign - this is a forum and I was submitting a subject for discussion. Riverwalk has submitted a very good thread on this subject and perhaps explained it better then I have - I am just going to end this by saying, having a golly in the past doesn't make you racist. Bags I know it is difficult and I am only making these comments from conversations I have had with black friends regarding subjects like the black and white minstrels and gollywogs. Hard for a lot of white people to understand I daresay. Johanna love some of your quips BTW. Goodnight ladies , my friend was very disappointed that none of you could ask her any questions - as you probably guessed she is black.

Next time you see her please ask what is offensive about gollies. Nobody has told me what it is that is objected to yet. Are some black people saying it is wrong in principle to do caricatures in the form of dolls? In which case please could somebody explain about African tribal masks.

Or Asian or American or European ones, for that matter.

I'm sorry Dorsetpennt has gone, because to my mind Bags did ask for clarification as to why gollies are considered offensive. I'm not sure what other specific questions could have been asked of her friend.

I am with Dorset completely. If black people find them offensive, if black children were called 'golliwog' in a derogatory manner, then they are offensive. I don't care how much you all enjoyed playing with them - you knew no better. My parents (loony lefties to the core, in fact, members of the communist party in the 1930's) would not have one in the house.

I think this article gives a good explanation of why golliwogs are symbols of racism. I never had one as a child, but there was a golliwog character in Noddy books - this character was portrayed negatively. I can understand children becoming fond of their golliwogs, but they would not understand the history of this toy, in the same way southern American white children loved the black slaves who looked after them for their parents, but did not understand slavery.

www.obv.org.uk/news-blogs/why-golliwog-wars-are-important

I think that article had a slightly hysterical tone.

Little Black Sambo was one of my favourite childhood books - and I believe it has now been cleared of 'racist' accusations because there was nothing derogatory in the story, and the title was just a description of the boy and his name.

As I said before, I understand Dorsetpennt's concerns, and she has said and done what she felt to be necessary accordingly.

Calling anybody anything in a derogatory way is offensive, I agree. Will look at the article tomorrow. Becoming brain dead tonight. G'night all.

Nite, nite Bags

Greatnan wise words. I too agree with Dorset, I thought we'd seen the end of the wretched things!
Mind you, I think Barbies are awful too. Googled Barbie and learnt some interesting things, but this bit made me giggle:
Members of the Barbie Liberation Organization secretly modified Barbies by implanting voice boxes from G.I.Joe dolls and returning them to the stores!

At my junior school there was one black girl and one girl of mixed heritage - they suffered daily from racist name-calling and often either became tearful or (one of the girls in particular) ended up fighting. The girls were frequently called 'wogs' or 'golliwogs' - and it was definitely meant as a racist taunt. I never forgot those incidents and how those girls were blamed for responding or retaliating 'negatively'.

My youngest GD is fascinated with Tchoupi, a very strange looking creature. There is no knowing what children will find attractive.
Last week while we were shopping GD looked in a toy shop window and saw a doll " oh,what an ugly doll it looks like a monkey " there was a very large golliwog next to the doll but no comment was made about it.

grannyactivist do you mean the school you went to as a child? Attitudes were pretty awful in those days I agree.

I've always thought it was a sort of inverted racism to tactfully not mention that a person is black. What's wrong with being black? Someone mentioned earlier that black people are beginning to reclaim the word 'wog' and that seems a step in the right direction to me.

I applaud anyone person or community that reclaims offensive words in order to take the power and derogatory meaning out of them, but some words may not make that transition. The thought of 'mong' being reclaimed by groups of people with learning disabilities makes me shudder, and I am dounbtful that reclaiming the word 'wog' would be as successful as how 'queer' was reclaimed by gay activists, but anything that takes a step in the right direction is fine with me.

Anagram I have tried to explain why gollys are considered racist - I explained yesterday about the fact that it is a negative caricature of black people, bear in mind that no positive images were available. Your having a golly in the past down't make you racist just innocent . In the past black people were considered inferior to white people [other races too for a matter of fact]. For example the making of films. Before the middle of the 1950s if a black person appeared it was usually as a servant,farmhand or something else menial. The only way a black person could be considered a step up from this was for the actor to depicted as a minster. In comedy films the black man would be an eye rolling stupid fool. With the exception of a few films this was the norm. It wasn't until actors like Sidney Poitier, who refused to appear like this, fought for a better role to appear in a positive light. I hope this helps. It's obvious from all the threads that we are a diverse group of grnadparents and we don't all agree with each other. That's call freedom.

Yes, Petallus I was referring to the school I attended as a child and I'm certain that that early exposure to racism shaped my future consciousness of it. My first letter to the press was a rebuttal of a correspondent's racist rant; I was just sixteen at the time and living with my (elderly, retired) grandparents and in those days the newspapers published full names and addresses. Nothing could have prepared me for the threats and sheer vitriol that poured out of the anonymous letters I received in response. My poor grandparents were terrified that their home was going to be burnt down or that I really would have acid thrown in my face - as had been threatened.

I still don't understand why the golliwog is seen as a negative caricature. I daresay there were some ugly ones (there are ugly white dolls too) but most of them were not ugly. If it is about the whites of eyes and thick lips, then I think too much fuss is being made. The whites of eyes do show up brighter against dark skin and thicker lips are a common feature of some 'African' faces. People pay money and have operations to have their lips thickened nowadays!!!

I read the article whose link whenim gave and noted the comments about slavery. Slavery is bad. We're all agreed about that. The slave trade by white colonists of the Americas was appalling. We're all agreed about that.

However, slavery existed in Africa, between Africans, before that awful colonial slave trading began and, whatsmore, it still does, so it is not just "white supremacists god rot their souls" who indulged in slave trading back then, and don't forget it was "white supremacists god rot their souls" who stopped the colonial slave trade too. Slavery still exists where 'whites' have not managed to stamp it out.

So really I think the golliwog wars are about festering resentment rather than any real current problem. I'm not saying there aren't any current problems between people of different skin colour, but I don't believe the existence of golly dolls is one of them. That said, in fact I have clearly been as PC as could be desired because, as I said earlier, eleven year old DD doesn't even know what a golliwog is.

As I see it, the golliwog is a caricature of a black person, or a ridiculous racial stereotype. Just as the Black and White Minstrels were.

I remember some years ago, when the question of the Robertson golliwogs was first raised, I had a conversation about this with an Afro-Carribean friend. He said that a white child playing with a golliwog did not offend him. Someone calling him a golliwog did offend him - it was the context that determined whether it was an insult or not.

Many black people refer to each other using the n word (especially the younger members). Again he explained that using that word themselves there was obviously no offence - some white people using in an obviously insulting manner was offensive. He even said if I were to use the word he would not be upset. When I said I would feel very uncomfortable using the word - it caused laughter amongst the black people present - again they said they knew I would not use it to cause offence so it was OK. I'm not explaining this very well but the crux of their argument was that it was the INTENT that caused the offence, not necessarily the word. (I still won't use the n word!!)

I have just remember something which he told me he did find offensive. That was what he referred to as the white pseudo-liberals who would talk about rascism and what caused offence to black people. He felt what they were actually saying was that he, as a black man, was too stupid to recognise rascism so they had to do it for him. He felt these people probably had rascist sentiments deep down and would shout rascism to cover up there real thoughts.

Well said, Barrow, I think you've hit the nail on the head - for me, at any rate!

My Mum used to sign this song to me. It was a lullaby. She always sang it after Golden Slumbers.

"I've a little black dolly named Topsy, who doesn't like sleeping alone,
Cause Topsy's afraid of her shadow, though in darkness I know there are none.
But Topsy is only a dolly, and doesn't know better you see,
So I just put her under my pillow, Cos I know she likes sleeping with me.

And in the morning when the sun shines, I sing till I think she's awake,
Then I take her right out in the the garden, and give her a bath in the lake.
But Topsy is blacker than ever, and as shiny and shiny can be,
Though I scrub her and scrub her and scrub her, I can't get her white like me."

My daughter was shocked when she heard me singing it to the grandsons. But I still sing it.

I always thought the girl in the song was a bit silly because I knew my, slightly chipped, black dolly was a pinky red underneath.

I was very envious of the lake in the garden though!

Just to clarify, I was referring to Barrow's combined post, not specifically the last one.

Thanks, barrow. Those are my sentiments too and it's encouraging to know that at least some black people share them.