Interfering friend

I think it's pretty undignified for staff to be discussing your aunts personal issues with her friend
I wouldn't want someone talking about whether I bath, or have a wash.
As long as she is having a wash regularly, that's all that really matters

My mum used to say you be perfectly clean by washing in a basin of water! After all that's what People did in the old days and maybe if they were lucky a bath in a tin bath in front of the fire on Saturday. I never understand why people get so het up when it doesn't really concern them.

To be fair to the friend, do you only have the staff's interpretation of her behaviour? I think MOnica's post makes a lot of sense and it's nice that she visits - if you and your DH were ill or away, you'd know someone was there looking out for her. Also, when you live with others in a community, personal hygiene or its lack can impinge on others. I agree with all those who say the staff should be using appropriate techniques with your aunt and not just be letting it go in the 'guise' of choice. You'd expect them to help her eat and drink wouldn't you?

I think saying a client in a care home has made their choice and this should always be respected is often a cop out to save the home the bother of dealing with a resident who is making decisions that are not to their advantage but can save the home some effort.

A good care home will find ways, like the great number mentioned in this thread, to help the resident make better choices in a situation like this. It takes time and effort and many care homes for a variety of reasons including staffing quality and numbers, just cannot be bothered to do this.

One of my aunts was in a care home and once there, decided that she couldn't be bothered to get out of bed day or night. Her mental health was suffering badly, she already had mild dementia, so the staff moved her bath time to just after breakfast, dressed her and suggested she go into the day room until the cleaners had done her room. She needed a bit of coaxing the first day or two but once in the day room surrounded by other people and activity she perked up and took an interest in everything going on and was happy to stay there all day.

She lived into her mid-90s and was in care for nearly 6 years and for most of that time she went to the day room every day. In her last few months, she retreated back to her room, but it was obvious by then that she was unaware of anything happening round her and that she was gently fading away.

Some care homes believe that they are supporting client choice by offering a shower or bath every day.
The client, however, can find being asked every day is an annoyance and they automatically say no.
Might that be the case? If so, arrange with Aunt how often she would like to have a shower / bath / hairwash and ask the staff not to mention it at other times.

I'm sorry to hear of your own health problems. I'm sure you could do without getting hassle from Aunt's friend.

Maybe a strip wash in bed is the answer? Allow your Aunt to choose what to wear so she has some control over her own life. Afterall she can't have much control can she? Same goes for what she eats, or whether she eats. Leave that to her to choose. Bring her a book or maybe she would like a jigsaw to do, something to pass the time that she enjoys doing.

People have to wash or they get infections especially around their privates. It isn't bullying, it is caring for her needs. Give her the choice of what kind of a wash she has. ie bedwash, stripwash, shower, or bath. Give her the choice. Some sort of screen would allow for her modesty if she is shy in front of people, even a bath towel held up would give her some sort of privacy.

Do care home staff offer bed baths? It's not a nursing home, the residents are supposed to be able to look after their own personal care.

Totally agree with mags1234. My autistic nephew hates changing his clothes and what she describes is what his carers do and his parents, when he is at home, other times they remove the previous day's clothes and let him choose something else.

The same with washing. Perhaps she would prefer a bath, or being given a bed wash. It shouldn't be beyond the wit and training of care staff to solve this problem. Once the lady is being kept clean and her clothes changed, the friend will stop making a fuss. She could have a point.

My aunt was in a care home and didn't like to bathe or shower because she knew there was a spyhole where the staff would keep an eye on her. She used to take strip washes in her room instead where she felt she had privacy. They were OK with that provided she used the hairdresser each week to get her hair washed. Everybody satisfied!

Thankyou for so many ideas and tips, I don't feel so isolated now. radicalnan you made me laugh out loud with your vest comment, I know how you feel.
I have cancer and am on permanent chemo, so I have huge sympathy for Aunt as I sit under the blasting shower head when I'd rather be lazy, sometimes sorting out clean clothes is equally debilitating so I have to say I'm a little jealous of her at times as well. Too many people nagging me if I was as independent as her

Perhaps you could ask her why she does not like showers. Did she have showers at home or baths? She might cast some light on the problem. Perhaps it is rushed and they are a bit rough. It's worth asking her. Perhaps buying some soap she likes might help..
Difficult.

Might Aunt be getting a little incontinent and the home hasn't picked up on it?
That could cause a smell even if she is washing herself enough.

Maybe she finds it very tiring to have a shower or bath. Some people do when they are old and/or unwell.

Definitely don't talk to friends or relatives of Aunts friend!

After having read your post I am firstly inquisitive to know how your aunts friend actually knows about your aunts ablutions? I would not dream of asking one of my friends if they had showered that day/week, whatever. And the staff should just be saying to her 'sorry, but I am not allowed to discuss residents personal lives with anyone but their close family and then walk away, making it very difficult for the friend to argue with them. Confidentiality should be part of their job! I remember when I was working in a residential home many moons ago, we had a lady in and her son was one of the local ministers. Like a lot of elderly folk, she thought that we encouraged them to get washed far too often and would often resist our efforts. So one evening as I was helping her get ready for bed and trying to encourage her to freshen herself up with a flannel and soap, she was having a bit if a grumble, so I said to her ' come on xxx, you no what they say, cleanliness is next to godliness '. She just took the flannel and glared at me lol. I didn't realise the relevance of what I had said to her until I thought about it later. But, a strip wash is as good as a shower for the older folk. We also had an elderly lady who had had a mastectomy without a reconstruction and she would only let the mature carers help her take a bath because she was too embarrassed to be seen naked by the younger caters, so we respected that and helped her retain her dignity. There are so many reasons folk might not want the daily showers/baths that we are used to, it never did us any harm when we were young so am sure it won't hurt them. As for the changing of clothes, try and remove them unobtrusively and then offer her a choice of this or that the next day. Older folk sometimes find being given an open choice about what to wear quite overpowering, but only having to choose between two outfits is much easier. Don't let your aunts friend get to you, she is maybe a bit jealous of the care your aunt is getting.

Oh Sally, this is a tricky one isn't it! i don't think it'll come to best interest meetings as per MCA as you have POA for health + she has capacity.

You say she's agreeing to strip washes so there doesn't seem to be a case for self neglect (I don't think!)Does she have a change of clothes after a strip wash?

I think you're wise to have a laisser faire attitude; I don't know that you can change her friend's behaviour. Just keep your fingers crossed that the care home continue to be tolerant.

Good luck

Difficult one ! As you say, persuasion about the bathing.showering can be difficult, and whereas once upon a time 'patients' if I can use that word, were requested to shower or bathe but as times have changed you can no longer do that unfortunately !

Maybe you could start a conversation with the aunty about how times have changed .....there are online photographs all over about different aspects of daily living from years ago ....the tin bath in front of the fire, up to the bath on little legs ....right up to modern bathrooms and showers ,,,she may enjoy reminiscing about the old days and remember how nice it felt to have a lovely bath or shower ...is there a bath in the home she could use rather than a shower ? or as suggested here, a shower with a seat and a flexible hose ....she could maybe have some help, even in a swim suit if she objects to anyone seeing her naked ! You can talk with her about how she bathed her children (if she had any) or how her parents managed when they were young...maybe the home has a group and someone who comes in could start up this conversation and photo session ...you may find the memories come flooding (no pun intended !) back ..but it may take a while !

As someone said personally love a nice hot shower for ages ,,,too long ! hate it when I get up late and have to be in and out in 15 minutes !!

Good luck ....you sound a wonderful D=I=L ....it would be a nice world if everyone cared as you do ! As for the friend, you could have a similar conversation with her about how things were when the Aunt was young ...and how she could chat to you about her concerns and find a way to enter into discussion with the staff rather than complaining ! Complaining might make it worse for the Aunt

You certainly shouldn't try 'having a word' with the friend's relatives! That could cause one hell of a row...(IMO).

You are treading a fine line between keeping your Aunt's kind friend, not upsetting her carers AND not listening to an old and vulnerable lady about what she wants. So, instead of trying to "sort it", sit back and let the friend rant and you just go in and have positive visits in which you thank the staff for their hard work in looking after your Aunt. You've done everything right so don't fall into the trap of thinking that you can control and take responsibility for everything about her life. You can't.

I am sure Auntie feels she is losing her independence in her new surroundings, give her time, and a little gentle persuasion from the staff, and I am sure she will come round. Maybe she is digging her heals in when the friend comes, and is tired of the perpetual nagging. I wonder is this friend a former Nurse? I am, and we do tend to be bossy!so watch out when I get to that stage.

I used to be a nurse a long time ago, and we found that some older people especially ladies used to hate being bathed. It was embarrassing for them. One lady used to be in for a quick dip and out again before you could blink. It may be that your aunt being of the older generation would have been used to stand up washes at home. No prying eyes to see her wrinkles or lumps and saggy breasts. Embarrassment about bodies was the norm in her day.

Did you know that wipes are the bane of plumbers? They will not degrade and they block up pipes and sewers. If she would tolerate a wipe, she might tolerate a flannel wash?

Think of it this way. If being dirty all the time results in lice or similar would she be made to delouse?

Personal choice is ok but there are others to consider in a nursing home. What about the other residents? Surely they do not want a smelly person next to them when they are eating do they.

OK at home but not IN a home.

Sorry to be blunt.

Hi SallyD

You could sell having a bath, as a chance of one-to-one
attention most likely with a carer who will know her idiosyncrasies. They should have a working relationship
already. After the first time she will come to realise
bathing, chatting and laughing can be pleasant.

I agree, the Home staff will negate the friend's bossy ways.
If she doesn't stop, it's time to enlist the Home Manager.
A polite "I don't want to have to ban you visits to our Resident" et al.

Good luck.

No one seems to have mentioned this but I think the fried is exhibiting bullying behaviour imho.

Does the aunt have early dementia? People with dementia can be very difficult about washing and changing clothes, but the care home ought to be able to manage it. My mother was incredibly difficult in this respect, but once she was in her care home, she was always clean and nicely dressed, with nice clean hair. Ditto all the other residents. Just patience and persuasion, I gather - and no actual asking whether anyone wanted a shower, since the answer would invariably be 'No'.

If there's no dementia, then it's maybe a bit trickier.

However, I would certainly be inclined to have a very firm word with this friend, and tell her to stop hassling the staff altogether. I would be inclined to add that if she doesn't, you will ask for her to be refused entry.

Do you have power of attorney for health and welfare? If so, I'd have thought you'd be entitled to stop her visiting. Obviously you don't want to go that far, but as long as the care is generally good, the last thing you want is for her to be making trouble. In extreme cases of friends or relatives behaving like this, residents may even be asked to leave.

I'm surprised none of you have mentioned wipes. I do a lot of sailing where frequently there's no shower and no hot water if the engine hasn't been running. SO ... I started with face wipes and now I use Sainsbury's 'Little Ones. Sensitive Baby wipe. Large, thick and moist. Much heaper than face wipes. Now I am the freshest most hygienic on board!

However, my mother was also the generation who had 'wash downs'. Hot water was expensive, remember the gas geysers? Showers are a fairly recent invention, so my sympathies are with someone who wants to carry on keeping clean as they were used to. My idea of heaven is standing too long under a hot shower, and now we're being told not to do that. Times are always changing. Good luck with your situation, lots of good advice.