Woman

I looked up cases of transgender people refusing surgery because of any of the above conditions.
There were examples of personal preference, and examples of indecision about whether they actually wanted the change to be permanent.
I could find no examples of people dying when they went ahead with transition surgery against medical advice.
This is possibly because to operate on someone unsuitable for surgery, just because they want the operation, would be to knowingly cause harm. It’s not part of the Hippocratic Oath, but I haven’t met a medical practitioner yet who would agree to knowingly cause harm.
So, you’ve attempted yet another diversion.
It seems you actually claim that the rights of transwomen take precedence over the rights of natal women. That’s not a good position, especially if the claimant appears to be a woman.
But if someone holds to that belief, even in circumstances where taking such a stance allows women to be harmed, physically or mentally or simply placed in danger, is incomprehensible.

You're a far, far better person than me trisher. Tons more patience too.

I don't claim anyone's rights gain precedence over anyone else. I don't have a hierarchy of rights. I think everyone should have them.
I don't want women harmed in anyway but I have yet to see any evidence that they are threatened by transwomen. Might there be a few individuals who will cause damage? well of course there will, will some of these be trans individuals?-yes a few. But just as we don't label all men as paedophiles because a few are we don't label all transwomen, if they have undergone surgery or not. So by all means continue a battle against violence but stop linking it to trans issues and accept it is a few individuals.
Mollygo The reason no one has died is because transwomen can currently use women's facilities even if they haven't had surgery. If it's the law that surgery must happen I have no doubt there will be doctors somewhere who would perform the operation and people who would risk it.
I do wish some people would take this for what it is, a discussion on-line which is more interesting if points are raised and discussed., tackle the questions raised and stop twisting what has been said

German shepherd mum, I think many people feel as you do but frightened to say it for fear of being verbally abused by the
people that do it. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but soon jumped on by the few. The boundaries are being stretched all the time and it’s not a good thing.
Soon people will not be able to give an honest opinion.

I do wish some people would take this for what it is, a discussion on-line which is more interesting if points are raised and discussed., tackle the questions raised and stop twisting what has been said

Oh, the irony!

Doodledog

*I do wish some people would take this for what it is, a discussion on-line which is more interesting if points are raised and discussed., tackle the questions raised and stop twisting what has been said*

Oh, the irony!

???

Trisher, no they won’t. Those transwomen who mean harm will refuse surgery for obvious reasons.
Those who mean no harm will continue to either have surgery or not just as they do now.
You have just raised another diversion. I thought you’d run out.
I have never claimed that surgery is essential to transition.

Sometimes I wonder if peope know what they post.
I am not talking about those who are truly transgender and have chosen to have surgery.
I have never claimed that surgery is essential to transition.
Apparently you are only tuly transgender with surgery though

Doodledog you have claimed that I accused someone of being racist and discriminating against disabled people. I didn't I simply said the same language she used about transwomen had been used against those people.
So if that isn't twisting things I don't know what is.
You haven't yet explained what you want, or how things will be implemented.
You apparently think things are awful but don't want to do anything except keep posting how awful they are.
*Gagajo's right I've tried to debate reasonably and patiently. But you don't really want to discuss anything .

This

I haven't said that things are awful. I have repeatedly said that whereas I have no concerns with people living their best life in whatever way they like, I object when single sex spaces are being used by untranistioned transwomen. That has always been my position on the subject and it hasn't changed.

I have explained why - because single sex spaces exist to protect vulnerable women and those who for religious, cultural or MH reasons do not want to share intimate spaces with men, and because I do not think that men's rights should trump those of women.

Apparently this is the sort of thing that Nazis said, it is what people said about homosexuality, I am playing the victim and so on (as listed in a previous post). If you didn't mean your comments about Nazis and homophobes to be taken to apply to those who believe that women should be able to us single sex spaces as they were intended, then why bring it up? Was it just a random observation on a thread about trans rights?

I am not twisting things. I just keep it pointing out when you do it, and when you try to divert the conversation to an argument about something else. I'm not sure whether you do it on purpose or if it is just so ingrained that you do it automatically.

I really CBA to keep scrolling back to previous pages to find examples to quote again - you will just ignore them anyway.

Trisher you evidently think you are only ‘tuly’ transgender with surgery. This is a new step even for you. I know you put it in what purports you be a post by me, but I didn’t say that and I don’t believe that.
This whole string of your posts misses the vital issue which you ignore when someone posts it and you try to divert the thread along yet another sidetrack.
The issue is not whether surgery is essential for transition, or whether there are ‘doctors somewhere who would perform it’.
The issue is whether transwomen's rights should take precedence over the rights of natal women, even when those rights put natal women in danger of physical or mental harm.
You’ve already agreed that the erosion of women’s rights regarding employment is a real threat caused by the patriarchy using existing legislation to make women’s lives more difficult.
The same patriarchy is trying to erode natal women’s rights to be safe.
People can call themselves what they want and dress how they want. Transwomen who do not use their trans ID to endanger natal women, girls and children or create situations where they can use the fact that they are really men to the detriment of natal women, will pass unremarked as many of them already do.
Transwomen who do use their trans ID to endanger natal women, girls and children or create situations where they can use the fact that they are really men do more harm to the trans community than anyone else. Currently their right to commit those actions are endorsed by the patriarchy.

Absolutely! Well said, Mollygo!

Another endorsement of Mollygo's post.

Just read Mollygo’s post, very well explained and articulate post ??

Mollygo if you don't understand that traanswomen are not part of the patriachy that they have in fact stood beside women for years and worked with women for years, but have done so by hiding and obscuring their true selves then you understand little. The fact that they are now standing up and saying we are who we are is an opportunity to embrace and accept them and their true selves.
The patriachy is powerful white men who have little regard for others, who divide society into sections to ensure that they have power over them, then set them at each others throats and let them squabble over inconsequentials whilst they maintain power. So you may well feel transpeople are the patriachy but there is no evidence of any connection. They are in fact one of the last of the minorities. They are subject to more violence than women, they suffer more criticism and condemnation than women (read this thread) and they are just as put upon by the patriachy as women. So by all means imagine that they are in some way a threat to women's rights but it isn't trans people who make and implement the laws. Meantime the patriachy secure that they have once again set women against other women and the trans community, set black people against white people, Christians against Muslims and rich against poor, will sit in power.

By the way the two quotes were from you I have no idea if transwomen have had surgery and I wouldn't dream of asking. It's really odd how people post things and then won't own them

Frighteningly, I’m becoming more worried by the women who endorse the actions of the patriarchy by sidetracking any discussion of natal women’s concerns.
Read all the posts on here where people have said that their concern isn’t transwomen per se, but concern about where trans rights taking precedence over the rights of natal women even where that endangers the lives of natal women or children.
Saying transwomen stand by natal women does not eliminate the harm that some transwomen are doing. If they, as transwomen, really support women, they would support women’s rights to safe places, where men and even transwomen who behave like men are excluded.
They would support women’s right to compete against natal women.
“It isn’t transpeople who make laws”
I don’t actually know whether there are any trans people involved in the law-making. I don’t know either whether there are any transwomen who are standing up for the rights of natal women against the harmful group of transwomen. I anticipate your list of examples.

Posted early, but I have to start work now anyway, so that’ll give you a chance to respond trisher.

They are subject to more violence than women, and the evidence? trisher There have been no transwomen murdered in the UK for at least the last year, probably more. How many natal women have been murdered in that time? Obviously none according to your declaration.
Isn't it strange that crimes against transwomen count them as transwomen, a persecuted minority but crimes (especially sexual ones) committed by transwomen are just absorbed into the women's count. No separation wanted there.

Where is your evidence for that Rosie51? This link shows that the deaths of trans individuals isn't tracked in the UK.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

And as THIS link tells you, trans people that are killed will probably be misgendered.

www.bps.org.uk/blogs/diversity-and-inclusion-taskforce/transgender-day-remembrance

So you're making an assumption based on evidence that isn't available.

Perhaps you should redirect your ire at cis, heterosexual men. Because they are the ones killing cis women.

Rosie51 your remarks show yet again how little research people do before drawing conclusions. In fact it isn't known how many transwomen have been murdered because there are no records kept as such. It depends on the police force. What is certain is that statistically
because there are fewer transwomen than natal women the percentage of TWs subjected to violence is much higher. There are of course a lot more women but just looking at the numbers doesn't present accurate data.
And are transwomen reponsible for collating the files or is it once again those in power?
For accurate information
www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

Sorry Gagajo crossed posts!
I agree why are women choosing to target transwomen and not men?

This is one of the best explanations ofwhy transgender people need to be included in feminism I have ever read
globalnews.ca/news/6261226/gender-based-violence/

What is certain is that statistically because there are fewer transwomen than natal women the percentage of TWs subjected to violence is much higher.

So is this what underpins all your assertions that transwomen are at greater risk than women? It doesn't actually prove much, does it? In fact it doesn't even point vaguely in the direction of a possible trend.

Wow! I nearly missed your next diversion-why are women choosing to target transwomen and not transmen?
Because we are concerned about the erosion of natal women’s rights in
safety,
employment,
sport
and the right to be known as women. These rights are being attacked by men, and sadly as I see on here, by women. (Unless there’s something you’re not sharing.)
I can’t believe you’ve read this thread and not realised that.
However, I would equally support men’s rights:
not to be put in danger by transmen;
not to have their rights to a job damaged by transmen
not have their opportunities for success in sport damaged by transmen, where the transmen would win by virtue of being born as women.
I would also support transmen’s rights
not to be expected to accept terms like vagina men, instead of being called transmen and natal men’s right to be called men and not penis havers.