Self ID of gender...can we discuss this?

The law at present allows males convicted of offences, often sexual offences, to be housed in women’s prisons if they self id as female although they have male genitalia. This has been sadly confirmed yesterday even though the risk to women prisoners is real. The law protects males feeling more. I’d have thought bona fide grandmothers would be outraged at this.

there is a lot of confusion here.
Gender overtook Women Studies in academia over 20 years ago. Feminist academics who wrote groundbreaking insights on society, art, literature – were highly lauded but their success was their downfall. Soon books on Women's Studies disappeared to be replaced by Gender Studies, championing queer theory, gay men took over. Time for The Second sex to know her place.
Women fought hard for sex-based rights. Had the feminists of the 1970s and 1980s achieved their aims there would just be women and men with a variety of jobs, interests, clothes and hobbies. Transgenderism can only exist if one believes that there are appropriate personalities and behaviours for each sex (gender stereotypes) – otherwise what would be left to “trans”? Were this sexist social lens to be removed, girls who wear trousers and enjoy scrapping and boys in pink who bake would be seen and valued as the children they are.
That children are encouraged to have surgery and take drugs because they are not conforming to sexual stereotypes is appalling. But people are terrified to speak up... they are vilified as ‘unkind’ they get insults and threats and women hate that and don't men know it. Even JK Rowling cannot have a voice on social media any more. She should have realised that the most powerful curse in all her wonderful writing and studies of magic for us all to enjoy...all kind all good, was TERF. Jenny Murray had to eave Womens Hour because she spoke of womens sex based Rights so she was censured. Suzanne Moore ejected from The Guardian. Intelligent liberal women.
Lets be clear it really is simple. There are two sexes male and female. Gender is society's construction of the behaviour of the sexes: masculinity and femininity in humans to suit patriarchal desires and needs. Feminists from Mary Wollstonecraft to Simone de Beauvoir to Germaine Greer have famously criticised this crippling of behaviour of one sex to the other. They were in essence equal people. That is what we have lost. Men have taken over again the majority of whom are horrified to see this happen they want to have the full range of human characteristics without this parodying of sexual stereotypes.
Someone asked of my granddaughters...they are very young and have succumbed to the pink and the princesses…I just want them to be able to access safe female spaces. That's all. Why can’t trans people be proud of being trans? why do they insist on being called women (men as a word is not threatened - I wonder why?). If someone goes through the physical transitioning process of removal of penis and drugs (please no) then legally they can become women and of course they should have the same protection as women. But not any man who just decides to self identify. That is mad.

Julie Miller is a transwoman who sees fake 'trans' prisoners for what they are.
The particular people mentioned seem to be imprisoned in a separate unit but when they are released they'll be welcome in all women's spaces.

vampirequeen

Galaxy

Why would transwomen be a different risk to women. They allow for the exclusion of transwomen from sex segregated spaces, so the law in this case is applied differently. And to be honest that is all women are asking for that the exclusions be applied in places such as prisons refuges etc.

Would you really put a trans woman into a male prison? What about her safety?

The prison service have realised their mistake and have provided protected spaces as they ought to have done in the first place. Trisher has info about it.

So if we have self-Id, do we need the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) or not have either?

I think the GRA is a bad law for a number of key reasons:

- it mandates belief, attempting to force people into colluding with the pretence that a holder of a GRC has changed sex

- it has it's basis in homophobia - in 2004 our lawmakers preferred to pass a law allowing people to pretend to change sex rather than introduce same sex marriage

- it is inherently sexist, codifying as it does the sexist concept of 'gender identity' in our laws

- it is clearly confusing, having led many, many organisation to breach the equality act, thinking they were complying with the GRA

It effectively brings back punishment for heresy, and such homophobia and sexism has no place in our laws.

It absolutely should be repealed, and citizens who want to discuss that should be able to do so without being censored.

A useful phrase to use,

"I don't have a gender identity and I consider it a violation of my freedom of conscience and belief to impose one on me."

simtib

To label half the population of the country as violent due to the action of a relativly very small number of people does seem a little illogical and harsh.

Totally agree. A minority of men are violent either to other men, women or both. The same goes for a minority of women. Transgender women are no more dangerous than any other women.

To label half the population of the country as violent due to the action of a relativly very small number of people does seem a little illogical and harsh.

What trisher said. Plus 100.

What I don't understand is why any woman knowing that transwomen are more at risk of violence and that it is mostly men who are responsible for violence against both of us would subject any transwomen to the risk of such violence. Is it OK to wash your hands of them because you personally don't believe they are women?

Summerlove

Babyshark

My stance is (not that anime asked I know but I don’t want to be labelled transphobic as I don’t believe I am).

Call yourself what you like, dress as you like, use what pronouns you like, live your life as you see fit. Have protections in law, demand your rights to be treated with respect.

But please respect women’s only spaces, sports die to a biological advantage and in instances such as scholarships that are in place due to over representation of men, take one of those places as opposed to one allocated to a girl. You have the advantage on those instances, don’t encroach on the less advantaged sex.

So, act as a woman, except when it might inconvenience a real woman? Then please revert to being a man?

Babyshark, with the greatest respect because it looks like you sincerely believe you're not transphobic, please look up transphobia and what it means.

It might shed some light on why you're getting these responses.

Babyshark

My stance is (not that anime asked I know but I don’t want to be labelled transphobic as I don’t believe I am).

Call yourself what you like, dress as you like, use what pronouns you like, live your life as you see fit. Have protections in law, demand your rights to be treated with respect.

But please respect women’s only spaces, sports die to a biological advantage and in instances such as scholarships that are in place due to over representation of men, take one of those places as opposed to one allocated to a girl. You have the advantage on those instances, don’t encroach on the less advantaged sex.

So, act as a woman, except when it might inconvenience a real woman? Then please revert to being a man?

Galaxy

No I havent said that. I have said statistically men are more of a risk to women. You think that's misandry. I dont.

Ok, I've had sleep and sustenance, I'm ready - once more unto the breach dear friends, once more!

I have said that trans women are women, you think that's misogyny, I don't.

It's a really stupid argument, it's akin to 'my dad's bigger than your dad' vs 'No he isn't because my brother is bigger than yours, so nnnnnh'. Shall we stop having it and start talking about the influence that we could have that would protect all women, including trans women? I guess we could even have a bit of respect for men along the way too if we were so inclined.

( Place your bets folks, I'm going for a tenner on 'but.....')

Galaxy

Why would transwomen be a different risk to women. They allow for the exclusion of transwomen from sex segregated spaces, so the law in this case is applied differently. And to be honest that is all women are asking for that the exclusions be applied in places such as prisons refuges etc.

Would you really put a trans woman into a male prison? What about her safety?

A subject that arouses strong feelings......

I did not have any boys but have 7 (possibly to become 8 because one DGD identifies as a boy) grandsons. One of the things that saddens me is the tendency for all men to be branded rapists until proven otherwise - an exaggeration I know, but you get my drift.

If people were simply allowed to be who they are without the expectation that one gender or another will behave in specific ways then I guess we would all be a lot happier. Grayson Perry's book "The Descent of Man is interesting on this topic."

But I can understand the concerns of some about single gender spaces. I spent 25 years as a social worker with adults and sadly there are some seriously dangerous men out there - I use the word men advisedly - Grayson Perry himself in his book acknowledges that most violent crime is committed by men.

No I havent said that. I have said statistically men are more of a risk to women. You think that's misandry. I dont.

Last weary arrow across the battlements...

Because you have no evidence of misogyny in my argument because I haven't denigrated women at all - whereas I have tons of evidence for misandry and transphobia in your argument because the thrust of them is 'men are bad, trans women are men, so they must be bad too'.

We don't have to battle at dawn, we can have a lie in and give it a rest if you like. It's about flogged to death I think, bit like my jokes...

But for what purpose? You can use the words misandry and transphobic, and I can use the word misogyny, it doesnt get us anywhere.

And that's what women are getting, it's there in the act - so what's the argument? There isn't one. The perceived risk to natal women is covered.

That they allow for the exclusion of trans women who are assessed as a threat is a reflection of the concerns that natal women have - it's the safety net. It doesn't evidence the argument that therefore trans women are a threat because they are really men and men can't change their spots, that's just misandry, prejudice and transphobia.

Anyway, we've been here before Galaxy, and much as I love arguing the toss with you, we always end up back at the same place. I hope our waffling has helped some others who might be reading the thread to see some of the issues from both sides and draw their own conclusions. Sleep well, for we battle at dawn!

Why would transwomen be a different risk to women. They allow for the exclusion of transwomen from sex segregated spaces, so the law in this case is applied differently. And to be honest that is all women are asking for that the exclusions be applied in places such as prisons refuges etc.

But the Equality Act doesn't state that trans women aren't women, so to use it to support that assertion is a comprehensive misinterpretation of what the Equality legislation actually achieves. Given that it protects trans rights against discrimination on equal terms as it protects everyone from sex discrimination I would stay it's inclusive and not exclusive. The exclusions are caveats that allow for discretion in extenuating circumstances and allow for the discretion of professionals in the assessment of risk. Those exceptions do not evidence the tenuous arguments of natal women, and neither do they undermine the case of trans women being women. They exist to manage risk, where clear risk can be identified and proved.

And of course it's possible that that also applies to me but I hope not.

The equality act allows for sex segregated spaces which under certain circumstances can exclude transwomen.
I didnt say you are not genuine in your treatment of women, how would I know? I said that many people who say transwomen are women behave in a completely different way towards transwomen as they do to natal women, I am not even sure if they realise they are doing it. I think for many being right is more important than thinking is this the right thing for everyone.

Galaxy

And I think that is frequently to the detriment of transwomen, so there are many concerns about the health risks involved in the treatment offered, in the governance and running of the organisations that support transpeople but somehow when these are raised they are brushed aside as nothing. Because for some maintaining the idea is more important than the wellbeing of transpeople.

Not true in my case, I believe I was the one who brought that concern to this thread.

Your suggestion that I'm not genuine in my treatment of women is pretty offensive though. But I wont take it personally as you have no comparison to draw on.

And which law that states what? I'm not aware of any that negates my belief.

And I think that is frequently to the detriment of transwomen, so there are many concerns about the health risks involved in the treatment offered, in the governance and running of the organisations that support transpeople but somehow when these are raised they are brushed aside as nothing. Because for some maintaining the idea is more important than the wellbeing of transpeople.