Niqab/burqa ban in Netherlands

I suppose it would be considered racist to ask why these women want to live in a continent which has such a different culture.

Many of the women I see and hear in London have local accents so likely born here - why would they want to live anywhere else?

RosieLeah I'm sure there are many things you don't like about the UK, why don't you go and live elsewhere?

You think they do it deliberately to attract attention and cause all this fuss? You could be right, it empowers them. They perhaps go home and have a good giggle about it.

I think it’s something that is getting media attention and some Muslims find the empowering part is to wear the burka knowing it is offensive to quite a few of the population. How can you communicate through something that covers their mouth? They probably don’t want to communicate. At the end of the day it’s quite comical and a particular poster saying we should shut up and put up is offensive too. I think I could turn it round and say shut up and put up with how this garment causes distress

I suppose it would be considered racist to ask why these women want to live in a continent which has such a different culture. What is it about western society which is so attractive to them? (Don't tell me they are refugees as many have simply decided they would prefer to live in this part of the world.)

OK how many occasions have burka wearing women "concealed weapons or other suspicious items beneath it"?

There's a news item this week about two women going into Asda, wearing burkas, then putting items under their clothes in order to steal them. They were such inept shop lifters that staff and security guards soon spotted them. The fact one woman lifted her burka, showing her underwear to confirm she'd nothing else hidden up there tends to confirm, these women weren't Muslim, they were opportunistic hopeless thieves.
I live in an area where growing numbers of women wear the burka, very few cover their faces entirely, mostly its possible to make eye contact and my experience is these women are no less likely to make smiling eye contact, or chat than any other strangers I meet in town.

I've said it isn't an item of dress I like, I spent all my adult life supporting independence and equality for women and hard as I try, I just can't fit the wearing of a burka into that.

Good morning Terribull..I thought this thread was all talked out, nice to have some fresh input.

The word 'racist' is over- used and mis-used. If you say something offensive pertaining to a person's race, or discriminate against someone because of their race...that is racist. However, this whole thing has become a farce. You can't even refer to 'black' or 'white' these days without being labelled racist, which is nonsense.

The problem we have is the garment itself, and the fact that a person's face is covered which makes us uneasy. It is also voluminous which means it's easy to conceal weapons or other suspicious items beneath it.

It's not racist to discuss whether the face should be covered or not, whilst I don't agree with banning the burka, there are problems associated with the wearing of such a garment all of which have been set out in this thread and if indeed that wasn't the case then the list of countries up thread, some of them Arab, wouldn't have taken the step to ban them in the first place. The word racist is in fact a misnomer in this matter as the burka doesn't pertain to any particular race it's more cultural if anything.

Nuns, monks orthodox Jewish women don't cover their faces so that's hardly a fair comparison. As for swimming googles, I personally haven't seen anyone wandering down my high street wearing them, strange comment

How ridiculous and how utterly racist.
No, the Netherlands should not be banning what women choose to wear and nor should any other country.
Day6 - should we ban nuns and monks from wearing their habits? People in fancy dress, masks, swimming goggles? orthodox Jewish women who cover their hair with wigs and headscarves?
Leave them alone. We need cultural diversity. It makes for a richer life. We need to get used to it or shut up.

Lessismore has, I’m afraid, taken an extremely self righteous stance. I dislike virtue signalling. As Day6 and others have pointed out, many of us have experience of working with Muslim women. In fact I experienced working with both Muslim men and Muslim women for approximately 25 years. I worked with Muslims from many different countries/cultures, some of whom wore western dress, and some wore the traditional dress of their own familial culture.
As we all know, the burka is an all encompassing garment, usually black, but sometimes in other colours, and allows only a small eye space for the woman to look through. An abeya is also an all encompassing garment, but doesn’t cover the face. A niqab is a face covering, with a small space to look through, and a hijab is a special head covering, but does not cover the face. A headscarf is a headscarf.
The use of the burka and niqab is a relatively reason development in Britain. I never saw a woman with her face covered in the line of my work in all the 25 years I worked with Muslim people. This is what some posters are saying they dislike, with good reason in my opinion. It is contrary to British culture whether some posters like it or not. Those who make a pretence of offence are doing nothing more than exhibiting their ‘inclusive’ credentials. When people do this it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with them I’m afraid.

Perhaps I should add that Lessismore is not the only one to have lived and worked with Muslim women. I, too, have lived in Middle Eastern countries so am not contributing from a narrow-minded, insular viewpoint with no experience of Eastern culture.

All I am saying is, the scheme is not unique.

No, I am describing something we have managed to set up about 10 years ago.
We have a mixture of people wearing a mixture of clothing.

So a wonderful and inspiring friend set up something which met people where they were at.
We made it women only and gained the trust of the community. We managed to gain funding for a creche

You are describing schemes which have existed since the early 1970s in communities where many of those (especially women and children) from the Indian sub continent came to the UK without language skills or formal education. English as a second language (as it was known then) classes sprang up not only in schools for those of school age but in community centres where women met with other women to talk, cook and learn basic English skills in a non-threatening environment.

This is not a revolutionary new thing. Oh, and no women wore the burqa even though they'd only been in Britain for a very short time. It was not the norm.

I'm not championing anybody. I described honestly my own fears and misconceptions.

Stop bullying me you sad person.

No they are British. They have lived here for generations

Well, you'll have to explain that one Lessimore, in defence of the burqa.

I have worked in multicultural cities up and down the land and in the 70s and 80s, and even 90s to my knowledge and in my experience we did NOT see women dressed in the burqa on British streets.

You are not the only poster to have worked with and alongside Muslim women. You seem to feel you are championing them because all other posters know nothing.

The burqa came to the UK alongside intolerant, radical and fundamental Islam that took hold in parts of the middle east. It is not in tune at all with western values and ways of communicating.

If the burqa were the norm you'd NOT see westernised Muslim women going about their business in either western dress or traditional dress, which only requires the covering of the head. That is the norm in the multicultural UK. The burqa is NOT the norm.

No one on this thread has expressed any problem with traditional dress - which is NOT the burqa. You seem to be the only one finding fault and sneering that other posters are offensive.

Anyway, it is reassuring that other European countries are concerned enough to ban the thing....and now I have learned that those women all modestly covered from head to toe may actually be wearing bikinis underneath!

So it's not British culture. Thank you Lessismore. That's all I wanted to know.

I do think that having to be clad in a burqa is somewhat different to the joyful scenarios you mention.

Think on this strange phenomena.......you can be British and hold on to aspects of your history, be that nights in the Polish club, celebrating carnival,going out to eat pizza.

""their own culture? Some Muslims are British""

They are indeed British. But I'm not quite sure I understand the logic of your answer. Whose culture is it to wear the Burka? It certainly isn't the British culture

I find fault, because it is totally wrong???

Rosie, how does your interesting theory work with people who are both black and British?

their own culture? Some Muslims are British

Why are one or two posters trying to find fault with what is an interesting discussion about the wearing of the burqa in the UK?

You a re right Maddy. No one is having a go at the women who have to wear them or choose to wear them. Quite rightly, most posters are questioning that form of dress which is alien to western culture and I see only sympathy for the women forced or obliged to cover themselves from head to toe.

As has been mentioned this is an extreme form of Islam which most of the Muslim women I know also abhor. It creates problems and is not a compulsory form of attire for those with faith.

We should be concerned when there still exist fundamental regimes who treat women as chattels, determine how they dress and decree those daring to show their bodies will severely beaten or punished. See Minniemoo's extremely pertinent post and photo links regarding the changes Muslim women have been forced to endure since violent and radical Islam took hold in parts of the middle east. It is a subculture that most westernised Muslim females do not recognise or support. As a feminist I stand with them.

No they are British. They have lived here for generations. Again, stunning ignorance.

Why is it "totally unreasonable to expect us to just accept it without complaint"?

I can understand this being the subject of all kinds of discussion ranging over many issues but complaint - why?