STOP CLAPPING!

grumppa have you been on the

Condoning gambling! is gambling ( lottery, bingo having a flutter on the Grand National) a bad thing ? Only for an addict.Is drinking wine a bad thing? Only for an addict.
In any case, Kipling was only using the anology to reinforce
Strength of character.

I sometimes think GN is worse for our collective blood pressure than either gambling or red wine in copious quantities.

As you do Trisher.

Whenever I come across this wretched poem (and I certainly don't seek it out) I am reminded of Polonius' officious advice to his son:- "Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy.....", and envisage the poet's son and Laertes stifling yawns and trying to keep a straight face as the old men witter on.

And whether Kipling intended it or not, it can certainly be read as condoning gambling.

I said MawBroon Arguably it's a poem that promotes gambling (and hiding it)
But I accept that there are those on GN who do not understand objective argument and insist on making things personal.

MawBroon the inability of GN posters to be objective and depersonalise arguments never ceases to amaze me. I didn't say I thought the poem promoted or advised hiding gambling I said it could be construed as such

Of course you may think you never said that the poem promoted gambling or whatever, but used common enough “ weasel words “ to suggest something while ducking out of the responsibility.
So I am afraid it could be construed as such Trisher

I'm with trisher on this. "If" should not be on a wall; in fact I would stick it with a lot of Kipling's poems which really aren't all that good, even when sung by florid bass-baritones or boy choirs rolling down to Mandalay via Rio.

But nor are they particularly imperialist; they often take the side of the rank and file soldier and indeed the downtrodden subject.

Whateve trisher, whatever.....

I haven't taken anything personally I have produced an argument which actually both yours and lemon's comments reinforced.

I appreciate that your school days are some distance away from you now, but do you not remember dissecting a poem so that its meaning could be more fully understood?
That isn't berating someone Chewbacca what is it?
You and lemon posted much the same thing so I replied to you collectively. Why would that imply I think you are part of a gang?

The fact that both you and lemon find me doing that so objectionable, and that you berate me for "not understanding", indicates that actually taking it down was enirely correct.

Posters that don't agree with you are not one homogenous mass trisher! It is perfectly plausible that individual posters can, and do, disagree on topics. And I have not berated you for anything on this subject at all. I've posted items that demonstrate why I believe that RK's If poem is not promoting racism, sexism, transgenderism or even, heaven's above, gambling! You're taking posts far to personally imo and seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you is in a gang. I'm not and neither is lemon to my knowledge anyway

MawBroon the inability of GN posters to be objective and depersonalise arguments never ceases to amaze me. I didn't say I thought the poem promoted or advised hiding gambling I said it could be construed as such. It really isn't helpful or reasonable to then post a question about what my opinion on some other piece of writing is. It's not my opinion in the first place it's an objective comment in support of another argument. If you want to discuss poetry I suggest you do so on an appropriate thread

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss
“Promoting or hiding gambling”?
Oh dear
I wonder what you would make of the words of Montrose on the Commando memorial at Amfreville in Normandy Trisher ?
He either fears his fate too much
Or his deserts are small
That puts it not unto the touch
To win, or lose it all

(Exactly lemongrove!)

Of course Chewbacca but the point is if you stick it on a wall and don't discuss it any passing person (young or old) can look at it and take from it what they wish. The fact that both you and lemon find me doing that so objectionable, and that you berate me for "not understanding", indicates that actually taking it down was enirely correct.
Which is why I said "If" has its place but it isn't on walls.

trisher if you take anything out of context. it will become meaningless, so why quote just 4 lines from a poem and state that that is all that the poem is about? I appreciate that your school days are some distance away from you now, but do you not remember dissecting a poem so that its meaning could be more fully understood?

Which shows that you don’t understand the poem at all.

Arguably it's a poem that promotes gambling (and hiding it)

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;

It amuses trisher as she thinks posters who disagree with her have ‘probably never read all of it but just know a few lines’ classic intellectual snobbery
You are not the only poster to have had a good education you know, but do carry on showing off if you like ( it amuses me.)

It amuses me all these people who are posting about "If" who probably have never read all of it, but just know a few lines. It isn't all that inspirational. It is far too long to be inscribed on any wall. It is very Victorian. I haven't actually said I dislike any old poetry (You do like to make things up lemon). In fact here are many old poems and many new poems suitable for posting on walls "If" just isn't one of them.

As Janet Montefiore, a professor emeritus at the University of Kent and editor of the Kipling Journal said:
"it was “their wall” but that the decision to paint over the poem was “a bit OTT. Of course he was an imperialist, but that’s not all he was and it seems to me a pity to say so,”
Montefiore argued that Kipling was “a magical storyteller” and that his perspective
was part of history. “You don’t want to pretend that it all didn’t happen,” she said.

“Dickens said dreadful things about black people in the Jamaica rebellion. Does that mean you don’t read Dickens?”

She added: “If" is not a racist poem. It’s a poem of good advice.

Very predictable stuff from you trisher
‘If’ has to be one of, if not the greatest inspirational poems around.
Not modern enough for you? With that mindset do you view all the great artists work from the past as too ‘old fashioned’ and ‘non inclusive’. I bet you do.
Student unions are not ‘kind’ they are in it for the power.

As has been said "If" has its place but why it should be inscribed on a wall anywhere is incomprehensible. There are lots more appropriate, deeper and better poems around. If poems are to be inscribed on walls let's at least go for the best, not the simply the fairly good. And Kipling has always been controversial, he was a man of his time and his time has passed. Still it doesn't surprise me that some on GN are still living in it.

....and those agreeing with these daft students also need their heads banging together.

P.S. And 'If' is one of the best poems ever written - scrubbing it off a wall is absolute sacrilege. Those students need their heads banging together! Grrrr!

Rudyard Kipling's poem, 'If', is not at all racist! People nowadays think that he was a racist - just because of his poem, 'Gunga Din'. But in that poem he was actually praising Gunga Din. Yes, there are lines in the poem that would seem 'racist' today. But we have to remember that he was a poet of his time. (How could he be anything else?)

I deplore this slagging off of past great writers, poets, politicians, artists, just because their art or philosophies don't fit in with today's society.

How could they? They lived in their world, and we live in ours. That doesn't mean that we should expunge them from our history, just because their views don't match ours today.

And, incidentally, 'Gunga Din' is a wonderful poem. Well written, and very moving. Read it!

lemongrove you sound like a Sun newspaper headline
PCness^^gone^^crazy^^yet^^again.

Why do you use politically correct as a derogative term? It is often used around attempts to improve issues of equality. I if think someone is trying to improve things , even if clumsily, then it does not deserve ridicule. Good debate is always more effective.