I was watching a reality programme over the weekend and one of the contestants made an unintentional sexist remark, which made me roll my eyes but was nothing too bad just a clumsy way of expressing himself.
Some of the other contestants were laughing at him because of it and rolling their eyes but one kept shouting out, “You can’t say that! You can’t say that!” over and over , which grated on me at the time.
My thoughts are, yes, he should be able to say “that”, we can vocally disagree with him and otherwise disapprove of what he said, but surely, he is allowed to actually speak, as long as it’s not illegal in any way.
Who would people put in charge of what is offensive, as a woman I find much of BBC output offensive, do I think it should be censored, well no. To quote Ricky gervais just because you are offended doesn't mean you are right.
The ones who want to restrict speech are much more dangerous than those who say 'bad' things. Gervais is excellent is highlighting the utter horror of the the holocaust through his work.
eazybee
What a very silly thread when no-one is allowed to know what the language used actually was.
If you read my posts you will find out.
There is a second post with illustrations.
It isn’t ok to make comments that belong in the 1970s on sitcoms like On The Buses and am surprised anyone does this today. But if someone does is fine to say ‘you can’t say that’ though an elaboration on ‘why he can’t say that’ would be more productive.
Certainly there is no law against it but I think some people do need a timely reminder of what could be seen as a rather inappropriate remark.
I don’t get offended but I do feel disappointed when sexist remarks are still considered funny.
In terms of illegality, which I explained upthread, I don’t think the use in this TV context would have caused harassment, alarm or distress but many people watch these programmes and are talking about what happened. It wouldn’t take much for someone to copy what Haye said in another situation, teenage boys at school, for example, and the whole matter of calling girls “proper ugly birds” becomes offensive and potential harmful.
In fact it smacks of the behaviour that lead to Facebook.
Zuckerberg hacked into Harvard's online intranets to obtain photos of female students without their permission. His website displayed two photos of female students side-by-side, asking users to judge who was Hot or Not to create a ranking. It asked.:Were we admitted for our looks? Will be be judged on them?
www.thecrimson.com/article/2003/11/4/hot-or-not-website-briefly-judges/?page=1
Some have cited Ricky Gervais’s stance on free speech. I looked up news reports about it.
This for example:
www.yahoo.com/entertainment/ricky-gervais-become-anti-woke-195721626.html
Extract:
This week, for example, Gervais will have been horrified to learn that an Australian man, in court for performing a Nazi salute outside a Jewish museum in Sydney, cited him as an inspiration, quoting from a routine in which Gervais joked about a schoolboy called Adolf raising his arm in Hitler-fashion when his name was called out at registration.
So where do people draw the line? Should we be holding people in the public eye to a higher standard of behaviour because others may copy what they say and do?
Depends on what was said. I do think we have to be careful not to lose our sense of humour, like Les Dawson talking about his mil etc.
eazybee
What a very silly thread when no-one is allowed to know what the language used actually was.
Allira at 16.14 quoted the ghist of what was said but the actual point of the thread isn’t so much what was actually said but someone telling the person, “you can’t say that” when what was said was crass but not illegal.
I don’t believe people should have speech censored unless it’s actually illegal to say it.
What a very silly thread when no-one is allowed to know what the language used actually was.
NotSpaghetti
*Dolly*, was it the David Haye thing?
Yes! It was Hayes describing his girlfriend in a very weird manner, as he managed to insult both his good looking girlfriend and others not so good looking.
His wording was crass and I don’t like the words he used but I don’t think it’s right to censor words, unless they are illegal and someone saying, “you can’t say that” just didn’t sit right with me,
Perhaps saying you shouldn’t say that and explaining why would be better, but at the end of the can he can say it and it’s not illegal.
valdali
It's entirely possible to say things that are deemed to be insulting, by accident.
The parameters of what is "sexist" etc change year on year, & if you are in a different milieu from your usual (which someone on a reality show may well be) then you might not be totally up to date with the current language.
So I don't deplore them for saying it, & I don't deplore the other contestant for saying 'You can't say that' either. I just don't think it warrants a fuss being made about it.
Imo Ricky Gervais is a smart man, as comedians these days tend to be.
Not really sure how “proper ugly bird” can be anything other than sexist and insulting, or said by accident?
Allira
Here are a few proper ugly birds, David.
They have sharp beaks, ready to peck you very hard indeed!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
It's entirely possible to say things that are deemed to be insulting, by accident.
The parameters of what is "sexist" etc change year on year, & if you are in a different milieu from your usual (which someone on a reality show may well be) then you might not be totally up to date with the current language.
So I don't deplore them for saying it, & I don't deplore the other contestant for saying 'You can't say that' either. I just don't think it warrants a fuss being made about it.
Imo Ricky Gervais is a smart man, as comedians these days tend to be.
Carenza123
I really enjoy Ricky Gervais as he cuts through all the wokeness and hypocracy that is rife these days. He is not afraid of these trends and speaks some truths.
Oh honestly! That makes me laugh whilst it also really boils my blood!
What does “speak some truths” even mean?
Ricky Gervais is a comedian and often this genre includes some “off the wall” stuff which some of us will find amusing and some of us won’t.
Just like the MM thread, we can choose to use the on/off button, scroll on by, ignore.
This whole “saying it how it is” claptrap however is a whole other ballgame and is what people who admire Farage say and seem to believe.
Comedians worth their salt can frame insults, and often self-effacing, to be amusing.
Said in public by others, claiming to say insulting or sexist or homophobic things “by accident” is a whole different thing.
Here are a few proper ugly birds, David.
They have sharp beaks, ready to peck you very hard indeed!
Dolly, was it the David Haye thing?
Why on earth is it "woke" to ask that people treat each other with reasonable respect? In a way we would like our daughters and granddaughters to be reasonable respected whatever their appearance?
And why is calling out "proper ugly birds" hypocritical ?
Where is the hypocrisy?
I really enjoy Ricky Gervais as he cuts through all the wokeness and hypocracy that is rife these days. He is not afraid of these trends and speaks some truths.
Section 5 Public Order Act 1986
It is illegal to use threatening, abusive, or insulting words likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress.
If someone were to approach you in a public place and called you a “proper ugly bird”, or say it to someone else within your hearing, would you consider that harassment? Would you be alarmed? Would you be distressed? I would be.
Do you think the person had the right to say those words? I don’t.
I understand the context in which Haye said those words was different and that his girlfriend is alleged to have laughed it off but that’s not the point. It’s that men are thinking like this and saying it out loud which is offensive.
The gist of it seemed to be that beautiful women don’t need to have a personality but “proper ugly birds” have to develop one to compensate for their lack of looks. He seemed to be saying that his girlfriend has it all so he regarded it as a compliment but it’s an insult both to women who aren’t beautiful, and to those who are, to suggest they they don’t also have a personality.
That’s my interpretation of it. Either way he would have done better to keep his mouth shut.
Apparently he said:
Speaking about his long-term partner Sian Osborne, David Hayes stunned his I'm a Celebrity campmates by telling them: "She's tall, blue eyes. She's lovely. She's got the personality of a proper ugly bird."
I don't watch it, didn't know who he was and have no idea what he actually means.
But he certainly has the limited vocabulary of a mysognistic bloke.
Am I allowed to say that btw?
It is 'allowed' to say sexist/racist/homophobic things, but it is also 'allowed' to challenge them.
I'm not sure that 'you can't say that' puts up much of a challenge - a proper rationale would be more effective.
The only things it is illegal to say in the UK are those which incite hatred or violence. What the right wing refer to as 'hurty words' such as 'XYZ are dirty/ignorant/misogynist/ugly' are 'allowed', if unpleasant, but inciting people to burn down their homes is illegal, for obvious reasons.
Graphitesays:
“As a woman, I claim the right not to have to listen to a man making derogatory comments about a woman’s appearance.”
The point is you haven’t got the “claim to right”, you can disagree verbally when you hear something sexist, you can ignore, walk away but you have no claim or right to restrict what someone says, unless it’s actually illegal.
Assuming this was the Haye incident, which bit of referring to women as “proper ugly birds’ do women find not offensive?
And how was it unintentional? Is his brain not connected to his mouth?
Free speech can be restricted, among other things to protect the rights of other people.
As a women, I claim the right not to have to listen to a man making derogatory comments about a woman's appearance.
It wasn’t the one you were thinking about but I made it clear Cossythat I didn’t think the remark was ok.
My point is, unless the remark is actually illegal the person should be allowed to say it and we can disagree with them verbally.
I agree with you DollyD I watched it.
Too many people get offended these days.
Cossy
It depends I guess whether you think sexist remarks are ok? I don’t!
Neither do I.
My response would vary according to what was said and the context, of course.
But on a public TV reality show, yes, pick it up. It is simply not OK, anymore. Not challenging means you are letting something pass, which is the thin end of the wedge for far more dangerous behaviour as regards women.
And I know, as I was sexually assulted last October by such a man who would sometimes casually "Accidentally" make remarks.
Is that how we want our grandchildren growing up? Thinking its OK to make sexist remarks?
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join the discussion, watch threads and lots more.
Register now »Already registered? Log in with:
Gransnet »Get our top conversations, latest advice, fantastic competitions, and more, straight to your inbox. Sign up to our daily newsletter here.
