To want to ban all outsourcing , tendering and rediscover the joys of institutional cohesion?

Serious Fraud Office admits losing thousands of documents linked to BAE

The Serious Fraud Office has admitted accidentally sending a huge cache of confidential documents from an investigation into Britain's biggest arms firm, BAE, to the wrong person. The documents had been compiled during a six-year investigation into allegations that BAE had paid bribes around the world to secure lucrative arms contracts. At its most controversial point, Tony Blair's government stopped the SFO from investigating alleged bribes to Saudi royals in a £43bn arms deal.

Eddie Cunningham, one of the whistleblowers who gave confidential information to the SFO during its investigation, said: "I am quite astounded. My concern is who got this information and whether it has been copied. This gives one a lot of concern about passing information to a government body that had been so lax."

I received the above report from a whistleblowing organisation to which I subscribe.

You are fortunate indeed Nanaej to always have worked alongside such pleasant people.

Yes I have been and I do appreciate it! It made my working life so much more enjoyable.

On socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk there is new evidence that Stephen Bubb, the chair of the Association of Chief Executives of Voluntary Organisations, was lobbying to persuade Jeremy Hunt not to water down the section 75 privatisation regulations. This was along with the NHS Partners Network, which includes Virgin Care, United Health and Care UK.
This was in 2010. In 2011 Stephen Bubb was given a knighthood.
Virgincare, United Health and Care UK all send their profits offshore to save paying all the tax they should.
Does this sound like the sort of thing you believe in whenever you give to charity?
A spokesperson for the charity called Cancercare has said it will benefit from the changes to the NHS, becoming a "serious and competitive player." I do not know about you, but I do not want charies to start competing for NHS work. That is not their job, whatever Stephen Bubb thinks.

What is interesting about your examples greatnan are that they pertain to deals outside the EU, where bribery may still be the norm. The EU area has improved beyond all recognition.
My reason for defending the 20th C against decades past is that:
It is not all bad.
It is more productive by many times and modern business practices have made this happen http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=dgdp+uk+wiki&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=oYMMUqOiL-KL0AXy1IGoAw#bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&ei=oYMMUpPFMqG30QXC2YH4BA&fp=cc5200476c27da91&q=gdp+uk+wiki&rls=en&sa=X&ved=0CCoQ7xYoAA
The country does not have the luxury of being able to employ more and more people in the public sector under better and better conditions. This is how Italy has got its economy in a mess, to name one.
We have to compete with other countries if we are to create and retain jobs. No good retreating to a nice little cosy bunker and have a love-in. Unemployment would inevitably keep on rising and we can't afford to pay more and more benefits. The only way we can retain a decent benefit system (and a decent health system) is to get more people in work and paying tax.
Most workplaces I have been in, and there have been a few, are not dysfunctional. They are on average more civilised places than workplaces used to be.

I agree that the English NHS plans are a complete and utter lash up. The end of it will be more like Australia where you have to traipse around to various private clinics to get tests done. x ray here, ECG there. It is not thought through, or well planned. Looking forward to going to Wales where it ain't gonna happen!

sorry here is the GDP graph
www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=dgdp+uk+wiki&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=oYMMUqOiL-KL0AXy1IGoAw#bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&ei=oYMMUpPFMqG30QXC2YH4BA&fp=cc5200476c27da91&q=gdp+uk+wiki&rls=en&sa=X&ved=0CCoQ7xYoAA

I am puzzled - most of my examples of corruption relate to UK companies or councils. I have not suggested that Britain continues to employ more and more people in the public sector - only that it is conducted in an honest fashion.
Surely businesses can grow in an ethical and decent manner? If not, I give up all hope.
Of course many things have improved in this century and the last, but that does not mean that everything in the garden is lovely.

Outsourcing in public services simply does not work, and we have seen this over the last few decades; but no-one has the courage to back down on this and recreate cohesive services - but with better management, as this was indeed sometimes lacking in the past.

The whole privatisation and outsourcing trend was purely political - it had nothing whatever to do with doing the best thing for the services involved.

The NHS and social services have suffered enormously, leaving us in our current mess.

I have been travelling by train a bit recently and in order to get to Devon I go on trains from 3 different companies - now that is daft. I once got trapped in the Severn tunnel in a train that needed to be shunted out. We had to wait about two hours - there were trains available to do it, but they belonged to different companies and would have cost-a-load to hire - so we had to wait and wait in the dark with no lights in the carriages until a train from the same company was available. Sigh.

Of course there are things that have improved in society, as discussed above, but the fragmentation of our public services has led to chaos and poor accountability. Sometime this has to stop and sanity prevail.

As to grammar schools - they served many children from poorer backgrounds very well indeed - I would count myself among them. The crux of the problem is the devaluation of practical skills - success in education is measured in academic terms and this is nonsense. Schools that provide a practical education should not be seen as second best, but as having their own value and importance. We need to shake off the Victorian attitiudes that devalue these skills.

There are good reasons for hiring in on a temporary basis and even for hiring in more permanently - payroll services, for example, legal expertise, catering or to cover an unexpected surge in business. There is no good reason that I can see for outsourcing key services. We know why it is done, as many posters have said. The main reasons are political; cut down union membership, put business in the way of the private sector, make it look as though the public sector is smaller than it is, reduce pension and redundancy liability and keep wages low. Since the disadvantages are 'soft' and often unquantifiable ( morale, commitment, better experience of work, better access to training) and the advantages are 'hard' (healthier bottom line, smaller work-force, fewer on-going financial implications) I don't think we're going to see the clock turned back.

Dear Greatnan, Lilygran and Mishap and others ,
I agree that there is not one good reason for outsourcing ( so glad Greatnan that you're still debating). If you know what you need for a home, you don't describe it in great detail, then find someone else a commission for getting it cheaply .
Jess M, Wales and Scotland may be trying to keep their health system but we have to fight to keep our NHS free at the point of delivery , not just for our children but for the fact that it is the sort of legislated institution that generations in the future will recognise as a great step for mankind ( I'm fairly sure what history teachers of the future will make of outsourcing) .I cannot abide this acceptance that business ethics must , in order to succeed, be based on a bottom-line is all philosophy when it patently is not. Who wants to be filthy rich , whilst having to live in a barbed wire enclosure to stop the poor and starving stealing from you . Why don't the hard-working customs and 'excuse'folk seek the other 29 percent corporation tax from the multi-million conglomerates that successfully avoid tax ? China and India are very productive - should their business practices be the ones we seek to emulate ?

Well said otw. Business models can apply only to a certain degree, and we can glean some useful frameworks from business, but then ethics, risk of not intervening and quality of the service have to override cost. Business could also learn a lot about dealing with people and not following the money to the detriment of everything else!

What worries me as much as anything is the number of public sector services that have been outsourced to American companies.
Plasma Resources UK has been sold to Bain Capital, a hedge fund set up by Mitt Romney. If you look on their website, you find that Bain Capital buy and then sell very quickly in order to make a quick buck. They are not fussy who they sell to, either.
Do you know who owns your water company now? I bet it's not who you thought it was, in most cases.
Do you know who owns your Gas and Electricity company?
Are you worried about why Cameron and Osborne are so in favour of fracking ? I am.
As many other people say, follow the money.
Who owns your GP practice? Every building that the NHS owns has been listed under a company to sell off as much surplus land as possible, but the money does not go back into the NHS. If it did, the NHS would not be in the trouble it is.

JessM "The only way we can retain a decent benefit system (and a decent health system) is to get more people in work and paying tax."

How do you feel about stay at home mothers (or indeed fathers)?

It seems to be a privilege now for mothers to be able to stay at home to raise and nuture their children themselves.

Children are our future, the parents lucky enough to be able to stay at home and nuture are doing one of the most important 'jobs' in society.

Government is doing it's dambdest to separate children from their families at an earlier and earlier age.

Take the new childcare voucher scheme that the government is currently consulting on.

Seems to me that many working mothers (and fathers) would like to be able to stay at home and be the one to bring up their children rather than sub-contracting out the care to a third party. However many just can't afford to, and not just so that they get their holidays abroad etc, so that they can pay the bills and put food on the table. Those family units will no doubt appreciate this help. Some family units choose to be a dual-income family for many and varied reasons no doubt. Both these types of family unit receive support one way or another; usually to help pay for childcare.

Some family units have a parent who doesn't go to work, they have sacrificed their earning capacity so that there is someone there to look after (raise and nurture) their children and so don't need childcare as they don't need to sub-contract the care of their children out. This family unit only has one earner, but that one earner pays proportionately more tax than a family unit with two incomes. I do see that type of family unit being treated less fairly tax-wise. It would make sense if the non-earning parent (whether that be mother or father) could transfer their personal tax allowance to the earning parent. This would help even out the inequalities on how different types of family unit are supported. Tax as a household not as individuals. After all a dual-earning family receives benefits as a household not as individuals.

On £36,000 Single Income Family pay £9,000, and Dual Income Family pay £6,500.
Then child benefit was removed in an unfair way. Single Income Family on £60,000 lost all theirs, Dual Income Family on £100,000 (50 + 50) keeps theirs.

It's such a shame that it appears not to be acceptable to take a few years out of the workforce to raise children.

I do not know where you live, OTW, but many utilities are already owned by Cheung Kong Infrastructure. They own Wales and West Utilities, UK Power Networks, Northumbrian Water, Seabank Power and Northern Gas Networks.
Quote from their 2012 press release.
"The United Kingdom regulated businesses have generated good returns to the Cheung Kong Group. Profit contribution from the United Kingdom in 2011 was an increase of 216% over the previous year"
They own 27% of gas distribution, 30% of electricity and 7% of the water.

And another example of the senselessness of outsourcing! www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10243899/Government-spent-800million-on-temporary-staff-despite-redundancies.html

Mishap, there is a 38 degrees petition to keep the East Coast mainline in public hands. The petition is organised by a group called we own it.
We do at the moment and the East Coast Mainline is the only one we own. It's also the only one that gives a profit to the government, which shows how ridiculous it is of the government to want to privatise it again.
You sound like you might want to reorganise the railways.

Lilygran, that's not the only area where they pay ridiculous amounts to temporary staff.
Out of Hours GP locums are being offered up to £1000 per day by Harmoni, a company that is owned by CareUK and cannot cope with the 111 system it tendered for, let alone Out of Hours.

http://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/how-corrupt-britain

See my comment on Harmoni just after 7 a.m.

The most corrupt nations are in Africa, but there is no room for complacency about the EU and Britain.

http://sumofus.org/

This organisation campaigns for ordinary people against multinationals, etc
Guess how many CEOs of companies have been charged with manslaughter following industrial accidents? Guess how many corporate manslaughter charges have been brought?
The fragmentation of public services allows people to pass the buck.
Surely the profit motive cannot be allowed to take precedence over the lives and health and well being of the public and employees.

If they paid ridiculously inflated salaries to the staff who have been bought in, that would be one thing and still unsatisfactory. But I suspect most of the tax payers' millions that find their way into the vaults of these consultancies and agencies only make their way out again to the shareholders and senior managers. One of my DS went to work for a temp agency which was owned by a well known 'consultancy' and while the organisation he worked in was paying over £12 an hour for his services, he was being paid £7 and was treated as self-employed - no employment rights, no national insurance paid, no holiday pay, no sick pay.

A thanks from me to otw, greatnan, jendurham, when and so many others for telling it like it is. A group of close, life long friends had a discussion last night and decided to start The People's Party. I just wish we could - or would. What we concluded was that maybe it's time we became more politically active in real life, rather than simply signing all those petitions on line, for causes we believe in. I re-joined the Labour party after Ed became leader, but I haven't been active, other than leafletting and door knocking for our labour counsellor and MP. So, I'm building myself up to going to the next local party meeting. I have memories of membership in the 80's, where meetings were dominated by cliques, the obvious dislike when I took my baby to an evening meeting, in case she needed feeding (she didn't, the relief was palpable).
I accept the Labour Party made mistakes in government, the war in Iraq and all that goes with it, top of my list. But, they put money into schools, children's centres, the nhs. We may not agree with everything they did - but I find myself unable to agree with anything this lot are doing. Plus, where is the mandate to privatise the NHS, to attack the poor and vulnerable. It seems hard to believe that a tory led government, that didn't win an outright victory, so needed to form a coalition, is able to wreak the havoc it is doing within much needed services.

Do you know I shall sleep better tonight knowing there are so many others feeling helpless about the way our country is 'progressing' . I don't like the American dream is the truth of it and I wish I could be reading about this level of debate happening in our commons . Jendurham, Greatnan, Lilygran , whenim64 , shelby75 and Iam 64 , Jessm and all others , I realise that we have differences of opinion but I have enjoyed learning from the debate . I too was a party member , from about 8years when I delivered 1000's envelopes ( I too have sat at home seething -feeling more guilty now). I think I tend to vote to assuage my conscience because I know how lucky I am. I feel that it is the weaker members , the young and the old and infirm that our government should be supporting through legislation redistributing fair tax ( let's collect the billions avoided by corporations ( maybe we could all pay what starbucks paus and we should stop outsourcing ) . It is a world that , if you have money , you can get money cheaply , if you're poorer, you'll have to pay upto 5 times as much . I've heard that if someone is unemployed , their car insurance doubles - that is business taking care of the bottom line without a thought about humanity !

I agree shelby that mothers should have the choice of staying at home. Bit of a tangent though.
Of course no room for complacent greatnan but I think it important to give credit where due - much less corruption in both public and private working worlds since there was a few decades ago. Most businesses do run ethically and responsibly, and the minority that don't are a disgrace.

It would be wonderful to see more co-operatives but, well, people have got to have the oomph to start them. The cooperative movement in the UK was started partly because of political action by women I think.
I agree with lilygran and others that sometimes in the public sector there is a political ideology (tory) behind outsourcing as in NHS reforms. But sometimes it is not. An example is using temp nurses. Nurses' attendance at work is one of the worst. This incurs a big cost whether you have bank nurses (zero hours contracts !!) or agency nurses (more expensive). But unless NHS managers can reduce nurses absenteeism down to a par with employees in private sector, these are the only options.
Lilygran temp agencies do normally put a big chunk on top of wages - to pay wages of those who work in office, cost of office etc. But they do now have to offer holiday pay. Not paying NI does not sound right either to me. When i worked for Reed i was technically employed by them and nI paid etc. To be paid on a self employed basis I would have had to invoice them, pay for my own indemnity insurance etc etc

Jess, I hope you are right about the reduction in corruption, but how do you know?

There are nurses in my family. They have to stay away from work if they catch colds or have mild stomach bugs, depending on which department they work in, so this will account for some absences that don't happen in other areas of work. One is a midwife who would not be allowed over the threshold with any infection that could be passed on to newborns, either on post-natal or special care. This costs the NHS, but seems unavoidable.