Margaret Thatcher

A good example of how ridiculous these titles are.

Mark Thatcher was convicted in 2005 in South Africa of financially and logistically assisting a failed coup in Equatorial Guinea. After agreeing to a plea bargain to avoid possible imprisonment, he was given a four year suspended sentence and fined 3 million rands.

After his conviction in South Africa, he was not allowed a visa to return to the US. Also his Monaco residency card was withdrawn.

He has also been investigated by the US authorities regarding tax evasion (settled out of court) and racketeering charges (not proceeded with).

Sel, perhaps you'd like to list the 'closed minds' whom you think will not have read that link. Then perhaps, if they wish they can take each one of the examples listed, analyse it for accuracy, say how far they believe that the 'myth' is extant.

Thank you greatnan , for your vote of confidence .

Sel may not have meant that the closed minds were on this thread but in the wider world.

janthea hmmm, let me think about this

nonu thank you, I like innocuous as words go.

Janthea, wonderful though this forum is, I doubt the wider world will be reading this thread and following the link.

MiceElf I'm sure the publication that contained this article was not just for Gransnet and other people have probably read it. That's what I meant by the wider world!

Direct question, Sel - were you referring to closed minds amongst GN members?

Greatnan yes I was.

Thank you, some honesty at last. But I take it you mean that only people who don't share your views have closed minds?

Fair dos Sel. Now list them.

Why are "closed minds" always attributed to those with whom you disagree?

I have read the "myths" article provided and:

I don't think anybody has said "Everybody Hates Thatcher". I'm sure it's widely acknowledged (it certainly has been on Gransnet) that she has many admirers. However, it's also recognised that a significant number of people dislike what she stood for because they think her policies were divisive and damaging.

You could do hours of research on the legality of sinking the Belgrano and you would find that there is a huge amount of information, including the logs of personnel on the Conqueror, which arrive at many different conclusions. There is no dispute, however, that the Belgrano was sailing away in the direction of Argentina when it was torpedoed.

As to the inflation point, there are, again, different views as to whether Mrs T used unemployment to bring down inflation, but there's no denying that unemployment rose to 3.4 million.

It may be a myth that Scargill wanted to negotiate, but it's a myth that not many people subscribe to now. Many people feel that he handled the whole situation very badly, and that his actions played into the hands of Mrs T whose goal was to smash unions for all time - a goal entirely consistent with her "free market" philosophy.

Mrs T said "No government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first ...the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us is prepared to help those who are unfortunate." Her view is akin to that of the American view where taxes are kept very low and the role of the state to allocate money to various services is limited. Charities in the US have a much bigger role in providing help but "unpopular" causes like mental health, mental disability, etc., tend to miss out.

Nope, not at all although I would say the closed minds are more closed when they are left minded

I would hazard a guess that the majority members who regularly post on here, certainly in any vaguely political arena are predominately left wing. Just an observation. I would also hazard a guess that they have been mostly employed in the public sector. So, if you're outside of that norm then some posters feel, at the very least, outnumbered. I think some people dip their toes in and retire wounded.

I think its quite natural that we there are different beliefs based on life experiences. Some have had experiences across the spectrum, some have spent their lives in one small arena. Neither good nor bad, it's life.

I have mixed with a wide variety of people been rich and poor and had to rid myself of prejudices and preconceptions. I enjoy reading differing peoples' views on here as they are mostly intelligent and well written. Some I admire - those that remind me of the old school politicians who really did want to improve the lot of their fellow man. As I mentioned before, lots of people want the same things in life but will argue about the best way of achieving that.

Oh whoops I answered the door so my answer was addressed to Greatnan and delayed.

Eloethan it's quite funny you mention the US model. My OH is American so we spend many a happy romantic evening debating both countries. He is uncomfortable to say the least with the US model and very impressed with the UK (I've trained him well) One thing I will say in the US's favour, companies there do a tremendous amount to help - it's deductible so you may say they would. I have every admiration for Bill Gates, Warren Buffet etc who make a tremendous amount of money, create innumerable jobs and try and make the world a better place by giving it away.

Sel, I have been a secretary, a teacher, a head of a remedial service, a portfolio manager to a millionaire in Monte Carlo, a self-employed conveyancer, an independent financial consultant in Brussels, and a tax inspector. I don't think anybody could accuse me of having limited experience! We have many members who have worked overseas, we have doctors, we have lawyers, we have successful business women, we have JPs, we have social workers.....in short, we have women, and a few men, from all walks of life. You appear to assume from several of your posts that you are the only member who has ever run a business. A bit arrogant of you, I would say.

Sel I don't know on what basis you say that those with left leaning views are more inclined to be "closed minded".

Whenever someone on GN has put a view different from my own I have considered what they have said, read any links they have provided, and responded to the points raised. You are lumping a whole lot of people together, who are broadly to the left of the political spectrum but who may well not agree on every issue, and labelling them in a way that belittles their opinions. I don't think anyone with whom you disagree has made remarks such as "sheeplike" "closed minded" "unable to think for themselves" "loony left" etc., etc.

I am, as I've said before, politically on the left. However, I don't see on what you base your public sector/left wing - private sector/right wing hypothesis. And, even if it were the case, so what?

I was employed, at different times, for around 6 years in the public sector - the first as a secretary in a psychiatric hospital and the second as an adult literacy teacher. The remainder of my time in work - around 38 years - has been spent in the private (legal) sector, for the last 25 years in Central London. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit in with your theory.

Amazing Sel - you criticise me for making assumotions and then you post those comments!! You really are a hoot!

or assumptions even

My very well paid experiences in the private sector taught me a lot as did my experiences in the public sector and voluntary sector (not so well paid). My voluntary work(not paid at all) has also contributed to my life experiences - all of these have confirmed my left leaning views.

Indeed, a lazy assumption and right wing myth. I too have experience in the private and public sector and extensive experience in the voluntary sector too. My husband, who has spent his entire life in the private sector finds my views significantly to the right of his.

High five , Sel !!!

Oh Nonu go and do some more shopping!

Would you like to come with me ?

Or do you want me to F .O.

Your choice !!

Sel
I know Eloquent Eloethan! has commented on this.

You said I would say the closed minds are more closed when they are left minded
I am sorry but that is the most ridiculously unfounded remark I have heard on here.
You then say
I have mixed with a wide variety of people been rich and poor and had to rid myself of prejudices and preconceptions.

Yet you seemed to me to be making just such a preconception about left-leaning people being closed minded.

There are extremists on all sides of the political debate. The extremists are those who are narrow minded.