Diana Melly webchat for Dignity In Dying, Monday 26 March, 11am-noon

Shipman and Allitt were both assessed for Dangerous and Severe Personality Disorder when remanded in prison, as it was clear that their criminality separated them out from other offenders - the intention was to decide whether they were suitable for Hospital Orders, rather than prison sentences. This process was continued in Allitt's case, but of course Shipman sabotaged those attempts be taking his own life. To equate either of them with conscientious health professionals is outrageous.

Forgot to add - Allitt was sent to Rampton Special Hospital.

Quite! I feel very insulted!

Thanks Carol, it's good to have a professional to fill in the details. That's one of the good things about GNet - we have so much expertise and experience among us.

Annobel, thank you for that post - I think you have expressed very well what so many of us feel.

I am always of the opinion that 'less is more'. In Lydia's case, 'methinks the lady doth protest too much '.

There are so many posts on this thread that I would like to answer but far too many to respond to individually. Could we possibly stop 'religion bashing' and look at this subject in a simple moral way?
Before Greatnan gets back at me (as she has done on previous threads AND THAT IS HER RIGHT!) I am, like Lydia, a Catholic and proud of it - and yes, my faith staunchly opposes any euthanasia and abortion.
However, I also have staunch atheist friends who oppose euthansia purely on moral grounds.
It could well be 'the thin end of the wedge' as the abortion law has proved to be. At this stage they say that only the person wanting to die will be allowed to make the request, but how do we know that a person who is still mentally capable of making that decision is not being emotionally forced into the decision by their darling daughter who cannot cope with caring any more? 'Caring' relatives could easily have a hidden agenda (Cash from the will?) and the elderly can easily be 'persuaded' by emotional pressure.
I appreciate what Greatnan says about religious beliefs being forced onto those without - but what about having atheist beliefs (and I use the word beliefs reservedly) being forced on those of us who do believe? It appears that whenever a subject like this is raised it turns into a campaign against religion - or is that my imagination?

It is your imagination. You are perfectly entitled to believe anything you like and to pursue your religion - all we ask is that your beliefs are not allowed to dictate the law which all of us have to obey. If you do not want to avail yourself of whatever the law allows, nobody is going to force their beliefs on to you. We simply ask for the same freedom to make our own decisions.
Do you have any evidence that any old person has been persuaded to commit suicide?

All we ask is that the law makers take into account the views of us all and that we who do believe do not have the 'rights' of those who do not believe thrust upon us either. As far as I am aware no-one who has ever committed suicide has ever admitted to having been persuaded - it is too late when the deed is done!

In what sense could the views of anyone else be thrust upon you? If you do not choose suicide that is your right.
If you wish to split hairs, do you have any evidence that anybody who has attempted suicide was persuaded to do it by wicked relatives?

Surely any law dictating anything is 'thrusting' it on us? The law dictates we must not drive when over the limit. People still do though, as the option to choose is there, but, as several posters have said, circumstances are different in every case and this debate has opened a large can of worms!
Sadly, over many years of nursing I do know of many, many elderly people feeling desperately guilty for being a burden. My own mother used to say as much to me. Had she and I been unbelievers I don't think it would have been too difficult to persuade her to make that lethal request? Who knows?
There is also a huge difference between suicide (where the person makes the decision and carries it out with no other intervention) and the law authorising someone else to do the killing, even if it be at the request of the person concerned.
Those who believe are just as entitled to their opinion as unbelievers. We could bat this argument to and fro forever so I feel we have to agree to disagree. Obviously nobody actually knows until the final day, that is the crux of faith, but personally I would rather be wrong by believing, than wrong by not believing! Every man or woman for themselves!

I think I must have misunderstood you, Sbagran. Yes, you have to obey the laws on driving, but nobody has suggested that you would have to ask to be killed - why do you draw that comparison?

I think I should clarify my position once and for all, although I have said it many times before. I have no hostility towards religion - I just don't believe in any kind of supernatural being. Of course I can't prove that none exists as that is not scientifically possible, but in the absence of any shred of proof (not the intuition of other people) I remain unconvinced. If I did have a belief in any such being, I would want a direct relationship with it, not one brokered through misogynistic and homophobic men.
I have no hostility to any person on the grounds of their religious belief, although I might get a little tetchy when someone tells me I cannot have any ethical standards because I am an atheist! Everyone is entitled to their own belief and practice, as long as they do not thereby injure anyone or discriminate unfairly against particular groups.

What I hate are most organised religions, which I consider to have exerted a malign influence throughout history. They have been used by men to subjugate women and the masses. Their attitude to homosexuality gives comfort to those countries that persecute and murder gay men and women.
From the Witchfinder General through to the present church's failure to deal with child abuse, from the ban on condom use which has condemned millions to death in Africa, to the exporting of children to the colonies to be used as slave labour, from the hypocrisy that grants an annulment to the rich and powerful (Caroline of Monaco?) whilst denying divorce to others, from the refusal to accept women as priests, the catholic church has caused so much misery and fear. The Anglican Church cannot make a simple decision to accept women and gay people as equals, and their children's homes were also implicated in the shipping of vulnerable children, who were told their parents were dead.
I am sure everyone is aware of the horrors suffered by muslim women in the name of their religion.
Some of the 'fringe' sects - Plymouth Brethren, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, Moonies, et al are happy to break up families if one member does not conform to the edicts of the church.
Judaism also relegates women to a minor role.

I do not know enough about some other world religions, such as Taoism, Sihkism or Buddhism to make a judgement so I will confine myself to the Abrhamic religions.

I hope that I will not now be accused of being hostile to individual believers.

As I said, we could bat this argument to and fro forever. We just have to agree to disagree on certain things which I am sure we can do.
By the way, I hope you have recovered from your walking adventure the other day - take care!

Greatnan

I am not actively a member of any anti abortion group unless you count being catholic as one
I have been asked by members of my church to go out and stand at the door of a clinic and I refused for two reasons
1 I would fear not having enough knowledge
2 i am fiercely anti abortion but also fear a situation arising in Scotland where people are so anti abortion that they get violent as they do in America

Would I go out and tell lies about abortion no
I have no need to the facts are enough
I will i hope take part in other threads as and where they interest me I was unaware of this thread when I joined

Nazis did not bother to offer people assisted dying they simply killed
they killed if you were Jewish
Disabled
A gypsy
If you did not have blond hair you were considered a lesser race
They carried our medical procedures on all the above groups and more with no anesthetic

the point is that they wanted and for a time got the right to choose life or death for any person or baby

Greatnan

"are you willing to allow someone to go on suffering a life which is nothing but pain and frustration in spite of their own wishes? "

Any person can make a living will which states they want no interventions apart from fluids and pain killers so pain is not necessary

Many homes and hospitals not just Catholic ones offer specialist end of life treatment which deals with all pain

If that is not done that is what should be dealt with

"Why should your religious views be imposed on people who do not share them"

I did honestly state my religious views I wish the people who are anti religious and anti Catholic were as open

I also and mainly gave many reasons which are practical reasons
Lawful safety reasons for not allowing any person the right to kill

Do not also forget that the reason this country gave up its ability to carry out the death penalty was because mistakes were being made
Death is a mistake that cannot be rectified

Annobel

Would you care to comment on what you think I protest too much about

I hardly think you can be in any doubt about my thinking on religion, Lydia.

Is starving to death painless?

Citing what the Nazis did is ingenuous and irrelevant. We are talking about allowing someone to die who wishes to do so - I fail to see any relationship with mass murder.

Are you anti abortion in all cases, for example a 13-year old girl who is pregnant after being raped by her father?

Not everyone who wants to die is in pain - Tony Nicklinson, for example, is trapped in a useless body and is desperate to escape a life of humiliation and boredom.
Please, no more about the Nazis, it does your cause no good at all.

Annobel
Please do not try to twist my words to suit yourself
I don't think you looked at the post at all
Or maybe you only saw the parts you wanted to see

I do believe that the greatest majority of health professionals in this country are very trustworthy hard working people I believe we are lucky

I am not though going to ignore the fact that they are people
Within all walks of life we have people that are dishonest uncaring and do not follow the law

It does not automatically follow that because you work within the medical profession that you become a saint

I simply believe we are a lot luckier that other countries our bad folk are few and far between

"Organs are routinely taken for research into the conditions from which these children died but the big mistake there was not getting the parents' permission - more a sin of omission than of commission."

It is very obvious from that uncaring remark that you were not one of those parents
Our children were indeed dead but they were our precious children
their bodies belonged to us not to any doctor

Some parts that were taken

Hearts
Heads
Whole babies
Lungs
Brains
Kidneys
sexual organs

Need I go on
They put our dead babies onto a cold slab and removed anything they felt would help them carry out experiments

Not only did they take these parts of our children but they then lied
they also put parts of and sometimes our whole children into incinerators along with hospital waste

But i don't suppose that is important either is it

If i have left any question to me unanswered then please repeat it

The starving to death comment is nonsense and proves you know nothing about end of life care
Most people who are in so much pain have little appetite
The use of painkillers and other drugs negate any hunger

Any person who is unable to move has every bit of sympathy I could possibly give but I repeat if we allow the ability to kill we first negate a doctors reason for being a doctor

We take our country down another road that leaves too many opportunities for dishonest people to kill

Life itself has less meaning

Lydia it sounds like you are referring to the distressing treatment of babies who died at Alder Hey and Bristol, and the way in which parts of bodies and foetuses were incinerated or kept without permission of bereaved parents. I am very sorry to hear what you have said, if you are one of those parents. The Donaldson Report helpfully made recommendations so that no parent shoud have to go through such experiences again.

Please don't deduce from the debate going on here that people do not see that as important. Nothing could be further from the truth. The people you are addressing are kind-hearted and compassionate and have shown their consideration for others many times over in these forums in the past year since Gransnet started.

This debate is about assisted dying, and the forthcoming visit from Diana Melly, which is obviously going to be very interesting and thought-provoking. Take care

How do you know that they are not motivated by compassion? Surely in the case of the young mother you mention, if she had not received medical help, she would have found another way to put and end to her misery.

If the doctors had had compassion they would see what I did

A broken hearted young mother who needed someone to put their arms round her and listen to her pour her heart out

And then that very day take her to a professional who had the ability to show her that grief does eventually pass and that life can be worth living

As the Chair of the parents whose children had organs taken I listened to parents who wanted to be with their children

I would show them love not death

If the decisions of these "Doctors" are not driven by finance how come they are the people lobbying to have the right to take control away from the sick the elderly and the parents of disabled children and babies

The right to kill at will

Their will

That is fact

You're turning out to be a bit of a one-woman band Lydia. Shall we all have a reasoned discussion, or do we sit back until you run out of steam? I'm feeling exhausted for you!

Carol

Thank you for that post
I was one of the parents and also chair of the parents in Scotland
I am now very used to people who have little understanding
The reports in England and the reports in Scotland where I live were unfortunately a little short of truth
We fought hard for a new law
We got less than we should have but are hopeful in an independent Scotland