Diana Melly webchat for Dignity In Dying, Monday 26 March, 11am-noon

Unfortunately, I know of no country where you can leave a living will choosing to die if you become mentally incompetent. The two doctors have to be satisfied that you understand what you are doing.
The anti-abortion lobby will carry on trying to hijack every discussion even where it is completely irrelevant. I wish they would be honest about their agenda.

This is such an interesting thread, but where I think caution needs to be the watchword.

When one lives in a country where the State is benevolent, elected, and accountable to that electorate on a regular basis, then safeguards can be built in.

However, what if the State is not benevolent? Hitler and the Nazis were extremely efficient in how they dealt with people they considered had no right to live: not only Jews but gays,gypsies,and the mentally ill or those considered sub-normal. When life is not seen as a gift, then life can become cheap, and expendable, like so much in a consumerist society.

We must be careful what we wish for.

Oh, dear, Godwin's Law is now in operation!
Life is a gift from whom? I presume this is another religious reference.

It seems to me Greatnan is complaining about what she thinks are the religious or other ethical positions adopted by people whose views she doesn't agree with. Address the issues. Who decides when someone is a suitable subject to be put down? All right as long as the individual herself decides but what guarantee do you have that this won't gradually slide into something else? Abby makes a valid and important point. We have already accepted that some humans are less valuable than others. The abortion example is strictly relevant, not an attempt to hijack a different argument.

I object to other people's religious beliefs being used to impose laws on everybody. Nobody has proposed 'putting someone down' and you don't advance your argument by using that kind of language. The person who decides is the person who wants to die.

my daughter committed suicide after she was very badly abused by her partner,we never had any problems with regard to her cremation from the church.I wanted to live after she died,I also had a child die in infancy,but have also felt the need for peace and felt like giving up,my son and my grandaughter have kept my head above water....from a doctors point of view,wouldnt the hippocratic oath they take to preserve life have a bearing on their decision.

Greatnan is still not addressing the issues. Saying that the person who wants to die will decide is one thing; guaranteeing that it will always and only be so is another. How do you/we deal with that? Nelliedean makes a good point as well. What about doctors who don't want to be involved? How can you guarantee that they won't at some time in the future, be required to put aside any conscientious objection because those objections are out of step with the majority view?

My belief is
Thou shalt not kill
But should not strive
Officiously to
Keep alive!

I don't have to deal with it - the law will deal with it. The doctor's terms of service are man made and not immutable.
Would you force people to go on living against their wishes?

A thought provoking discussion my daughter attempted suicide and was left a paraplegic for five years because she was 'saved'.She still wanted to die and the condition she was left in I didn't want her to live. That is not the same as saying I wanted her to die , she passed away 18 months away.

luckyrose

I am very sorry to hear your story, luckyrose. I recently posted a thread about Tony Nicklinson who suffers from 'locked in' syndrome and whose life is a great burden to him. He wants to die but cannot do it himself and at the moment his doctor cannot accede to his wishes. It is inhumane to force people to live when their life has no meaning for them and is, in fact, a living nightmare.

I'm very sorry indeed for people who want to be dead and are unable to do anything about it. I'm also very concerned that in an unconsidered response to their desperate needs, we may end up creating the kind of society none of us would want to live in. We all need to be involved in a proper discussion of the issues involved in allowing euthanasia. The law isn't some entity with an independent life of its own, it is an outcome of society - which is us.

Unconsidered response? Hardly.

nelliedeane and luckyrose I am very sorry for your loss

I am happy to answer questions

I have spent many years campaigning on pro life issues which include all issues of protecting bodies with proper consent

I also worked hard to gain proper consent for post mortem

Jackie I think you have a confused view
Their is nothing wrong with refusing treatment

I would probably opt for your decision if nothing valuable could be done

But i think their are many dangers in allowing people to choose to kill other people

The only reason abortion was brought into the conversation was to show the progress a decision can have

To show that a bill may well have good intentions but can run away with itself and take on another life

I think you will find that carenotkilling website have actually been very careful
not to print anything that is not true

They have not printed just how far along the laws are in Holland

They also do not print the true state of affairs

A huge part of my family live in Holland and must depend on the health care

One member also works in health care

I can only think two things in answer to that bagitha
One when we give ourselves the right to take a life and in particular one so young that could well have been helped to have a life that could have given her happiness then we are taking over God's role

But we are also taking away something precious from that young mother
That is the ability to have more children To have a loving useful life
The more experienced among us know that grief takes over your life but not forever you can be helped
The insurance company put money before life
I am a mother who has lost two children and yes it rips the very heart out of you

I needed and eventually got the love that showed me life can and does go on

That does not mean you stop loving your dead children believe me
It does not mean they mean any less
I still have days when I cry my heart out
But I know i have given some useful things to this world

Lilygran Nurses and doctors are now being forced to work with abortion or leave their chosen vocations

Greatnan

I am indeed religious
I am Catholic and proud to be so

Some of my arguments do come from my Catholic belief some from an every day appreciation of how these decisions can have unexpected consequences

How dishonest doctors for instance could put down an older person with a backhander from a family member because they want their house or money

We are very lucky in this country probably 99.9 % of medical staff are good honest folk but we did have Shipman
We did have doctors who stole thousands of organs from babies
We have had nurses who have killed babies
We have had nurses who have killed old folk
At this time we have abortion clinics breaking the law

How many will we have if we give the right to kill

bagitha Read the carenotkilling website that has all the info on there

In Holland the person wanting to die must apply to the doctors that are paid by the insurance companies

They interview the person and then after a short time if you feel the same you are either given the means to die or are given the drugs intravenously

Their are no independent doctors making a case for not killing the person

If she were in Scotland she would have been given help from doctors who would be willing to show her that life is worth living
The cost would not matter

I offer absolutely no criticism of a broken hearted young mother only the callous money orientated people that took her life instead of spending money to keep her going until her heart healed a little

You say you are willing to answer questions, so please answer the question I have already posed - are you willing to allow someone to go on suffering a life which is nothing but pain and frustration in spite of their own wishes? What gives you the right to do that? Why should your religious views be imposed on people who do not share them? Why do you keep reiterating that doctors choose who to kill when you know the decision comes from the patient?
Do you not know that many of us do not believe in your god, so your reference to god's will is irrelevant?
Are you a member of an anti-abortion group? Have you seen my post about SPUC lying to school children by telling them that abortion increases the risk of breast cancer?
Will you be taking part in any other threads on this forum?

Abby - do you know what Godwin's Law is? I don't think the Nazis actually allowed anyone to make the decision to end their life.

Lydia, you are using the disreputable debating tactic of taking extreme examples and quoting them as if they were some kind of norm. We all know that Shipman was a criminal who might well have been a criminal in another walk of life; Beverley Allitt,too, could also have been a criminal in another existence. These examples prove nothing and you cannot besmirch the reputation of the vast majority of decent, caring health-care professionals by associating them with these criminals. It is also wrong to stigmatize professionals who make it easier for suffering people to die by implying that they are all motivated by greed. How do you know that they are not motivated by compassion? Surely in the case of the young mother you mention, if she had not received medical help, she would have found another way to put and end to her misery.
The Alderhey organ scandal was discreditable, but how on earth do you put this on the same level as Shipman and Allitt? Your statement that doctors 'stole thousands of organs from babies' makes it sound as if the babies were alive; they were not. Organs are routinely taken for research into the conditions from which these children died but the big mistake there was not getting the parents' permission - more a sin of omission than of commission.