THE PUSH on Channel 4

It was both shocking and very interesting. What a lovely girl with such devoted parents!

From the start I found her husband very arrogant and the tapes of him shouting and swearing at her were awful.

It is also shocking how these cultures still believe in things like honour killings, forced marriages, FGM etc.

When I lived and worked in the Midlands in the 70s and 80s it was a regular thing to read of young women setting fire to themselves rather than having a forced marriage.

I also witnessed first hand a lovely girl I worked with being dropped off at the workplace doors by one of her brothers and picked up dead on time at the end of the day. This was because she had become friendly with a white lad so her life as she knew it ended there and then. She had no freedom at all and I often wonder how her life panned out.

Very scary that times have changed little since then and it’s still going on.

I've watched the first part and a bit of the second, I'll catch up with the rest of it tonight.

What a tragedy, such a lovely young woman married to a very bullying man. I was so sorry for her parents, particularly her poor broken mum, she was their only child. I think the cultural practice of a woman having to go and live with her in- laws on marriage isn't great, this was an educated westernised girl, its a shame she didn't dig her heels on that score given that her husband soon showed his true colours in belittling and trying to subjugate her, she could certainly have done with her own very supportive family around her. The parents in- law showed horrible insensitivity, in the aftermath of her death in stating that on marriage "she became their daughter" as if it wasn't bad enough that her parents had lost their daughter, the in laws were trying to imply it was the loss was all theirs. It was all quite heartbreaking.

I echo what you both say.

I watched it too. These cultural differences are coming to light more and more. I found myself wondering why she didn't leave, she was a solicitor and must have known the law.
I thought she looked terrified on most of the photos and maybe was resigned to her fate, she seemed to know what might happen to her. I think she was completely demoralised by the husband and his terrible family. If only she had refused to go on that weekend away, as she was planning to leave him anyway it seemed.

A very very tragic story. It shows how coercive control can work on the most confident and intelligent person.

Sparklefizz

Anyone watching this? It's only in 2 parts ... shocking but very interesting how the case is built.

You beat me to it, Sparklefizz. There was another Scottish trial televised recently: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-67983653 - equally as interesting. I particularly liked 'The Push' because it clearly showed the differences between the 2 families and the Defence's summing up which, I feel, enabled the jury to reach their (majority) verdict.... A desperately sad situation, not forgetting the loss of the baby.....

Yes I watch and thought it was very very well done I cried with the mum when she gave that speech to the room of women
Although it’s a very different male orientated lifestyle we must not caught up with cultures only ….. whites women are killed every day by white men.

I loved this, the victims mother behaved with such dignity.
I really felt for her that her husband never comforted her during the trial.

Their daughter was clearly quite Westernised, very bright and independent, so sad that this was a “love match” and not an arranged marriage.

I think the perpetrators family saw her as a cash cow and thought she would be under their control.

Sadly there were a few red flags that made me realise so many people who class themselves as British really do not accept or respect our culture.

BlueBelle

Yes I watch and thought it was very very well done I cried with the mum when she gave that speech to the room of women
Although it’s a very different male orientated lifestyle we must not caught up with cultures only ….. whites women are killed every day by white men.

Indeed, But they are not forced into marriage, they are not killed in horrific ways because of family honour and they are not subjected to FGM as little girls. Thankfully the latter is now recognised as a crime but only last week a woman was convicted of FGM on a child.

I m not saying that at all Primrose I totally understand the cultures I lived in a relationship suit a Middle Eastern man for 8 years however the vast number of marital or relationship murders in Uk are white men against white women nd we have to remember that
I thought the mum was lovely The men are not supposed to show emotions it doesn’t mean her Dad didn’t feel it as much though Sago

She was already afraid of him and had made her decision to leave once they got home. Why oh why did she agree to go up to the top of Arthur's Seat which looked such a risky and difficult place to access, especially with the light fading and being pregnant? Was she coerced into going there?

I had only recently seen it on One Day on a lovely sunny day when Emma laughed at Dexter because he was struggling with the terrain. In The Push it looked creepy and menacing.

So sad. Like you, BlueBelle I cried with the Mum.

It was gripping viewing wasn't it. I did not warm to the in laws at all: the father in law, whilst watching a trial over the death of his " daughter " was aggrieved that the police had not returned the deceased woman's ( expensive he was keen that we should know) engagement ring to him.

Myself and husband were both wiping away tears watching the poor Mum too. That is rare for us! She was so dignified throughout and her love and pride in her daughter shone through.

Like Sparklefizz I can’t understand why she agreed to even go up Arthur’s Seat. They only had trainers on and she had a dress on. Unless, as you say, he was forcing her which now seems most likely.

That phonecall where he was shouting at her and telling her not to behave like a “British woman” and that she had better come back or else was just awful.

It just shows how deep their cultural beliefs go because he was very young and presumably born in this country so you would think going to school, maybe college and mixing with other people at work he might understand that women are not slaves and that honour based crime is totally wrong.

I watched the programme over the 2 nights. I remember reading about the trial when it was on. Totally shocking. It was so awful, and truly represented the ongoing life suffering of the victim's family, and of other families whose loved ones have been unlawfully killed.

I think it is an excellent thing to show murder trials on TV, and I think this is particular to Scotland, but I may be wrong.
I have watched the 3 previous Murder Trials as dealt with in the Scottish justice system, when they were on TV.
The previous 3 were all cold cases, but equally shocking. The prosecutor was the same person, and the suffering of the victims families was equally heartbreaking.
The previous programmes were on BBC and may still be on iPlayer

Bluebelle I was going to say the same thing.

It was obviously a terrible murder and the husband was a control freak and a bully. I was glad he was found guilty. However, I think it is a shame that people see this entirely as a cultural issue and have used this extreme case as if it were typical of a whole group of people. Women have been subjected to stalking, coercive control, rape, violence and murder carried out by white British men - even policemen.

Eloethan

Bluebelle I was going to say the same thing.

It was obviously a terrible murder and the husband was a control freak and a bully. I was glad he was found guilty. However, I think it is a shame that people see this entirely as a cultural issue and have used this extreme case as if it were typical of a whole group of people. Women have been subjected to stalking, coercive control, rape, violence and murder carried out by white British men - even policemen.

However, I think it is a shame that people see this entirely as a cultural issue and have used this extreme case as if it were typical of a whole group of people. Women have been subjected to stalking, coercive control, rape, violence and murder carried out by white British men - even policemen.

Quite so.

I believe it's a male 'inadequacy' basically. Some men can only feel comfortable if they are in control of 'their' women. And, unfortunately, some cultures lend themselves to that power structure. Which might be why they endure - because it's still, when all's said and done, a man's world.

This is why I worry about the number of young men illegally entering the UK. So many of them will have been brought up in a culture where women are second best and subservient to men. It does not bode well for the women in our country.
In The Push it was clear that Fawziyah had married into a more traditional family than the home she had been brought up in. Her husband and his parents did not want her dressing in smart suits and wearing make-up to pursue her career as a lawyer. They wanted her to be at home, cleaning and cooking. He was under pressure from his parents to put his foot down and make her obey him but Fawziyah refused. Divorce in these families is not an option because they cannot bear the shame and disgrace that this would bring on the family and their standing in the community. It's no wonder women struggle for fairness and equality in this world when faced with beliefs like that.

For those on here who want to close their eyes to the fact that honour based crimes are carried out by other cultures (in this case Muslims) here is the charity that supported the lovely Mum and also the late Shakirya and they clearly explain that it is men from other cultures that carry out these crimes.

karmanirvana.org.uk/get-help/what-is-honour-based-abuse/

You will recall seeing a lady from the charity supporting the Mother in court.

Yes, we all know all kinds of men kill women but in this case it was clearly an honour based killing which is part of their culture. If the TV and the charity can recognise this I fail to see why you can’t. It’s no good pretending it doesn’t happen.

so sorry can’t edit the name to Fawziyah. Senior moment and rushing to go out. Apologies.

Sarnia

This is why I worry about the number of young men illegally entering the UK. So many of them will have been brought up in a culture where women are second best and subservient to men. It does not bode well for the women in our country.
In The Push it was clear that Fawziyah had married into a more traditional family than the home she had been brought up in. Her husband and his parents did not want her dressing in smart suits and wearing make-up to pursue her career as a lawyer. They wanted her to be at home, cleaning and cooking. He was under pressure from his parents to put his foot down and make her obey him but Fawziyah refused. Divorce in these families is not an option because they cannot bear the shame and disgrace that this would bring on the family and their standing in the community. It's no wonder women struggle for fairness and equality in this world when faced with beliefs like that.

I remember a time in England when - and I've no idea how prevalent this was - some men would not allow their wives to work outside the home. They were the breadwinners and the women were the housewives. It happened in my own family.

Perhaps such men thought it was a slight on their status as provider, or they resented the independence of a working-woman - felt threatened by her mixing with male work colleagues, or simply believed that a woman's place was in the home. Who knows - but it has certainly been part of our own culture... until 'Women's Liberation' (as we called it, I think) began to take off.

Immigrants from male-dominated cultures are a problem - but mostly for the womenfolk from those cultures. We are hardly likely to be re-converted back to that particular culture.

It's more an issue with integration, and I do believe that is an important matter. It doesn't matter which country or which culture is involved, but I do think when you move permanently to another nation, you have to respect its culture and traditions.

Something to ponder. Sadiq Khan, when it became known that he approved same-sex marriage, received death threats from Islamists here in the UK. These things are not talked about because (a) of the fear of stirring up a hornet's nest and (b) it's seen as xenophobic and Islamophobic.

If these allegations are true - and I think they are, I believe the Police were involved - then to ignore them is storing up future problems. Level-headed people know these Islamists are a minority, they are not representative of the majority. But multi-culturalism will not work if cultures do not respect each other or abide by the host nation's laws. What might the end result be? Factional antagonism and extremism - on both sides, leading to instability.

However, let's not forget that there are native white British men who cannot tolerate their wives' or partners' independence from them, sometimes with fatal - for the women - results.

These are controversial matters. But they cannot be ignored.

Dickens

Sarnia

This is why I worry about the number of young men illegally entering the UK. So many of them will have been brought up in a culture where women are second best and subservient to men. It does not bode well for the women in our country.
In The Push it was clear that Fawziyah had married into a more traditional family than the home she had been brought up in. Her husband and his parents did not want her dressing in smart suits and wearing make-up to pursue her career as a lawyer. They wanted her to be at home, cleaning and cooking. He was under pressure from his parents to put his foot down and make her obey him but Fawziyah refused. Divorce in these families is not an option because they cannot bear the shame and disgrace that this would bring on the family and their standing in the community. It's no wonder women struggle for fairness and equality in this world when faced with beliefs like that.

I remember a time in England when - and I've no idea how prevalent this was - some men would not allow their wives to work outside the home. They were the breadwinners and the women were the housewives. It happened in my own family.

Perhaps such men thought it was a slight on their status as provider, or they resented the independence of a working-woman - felt threatened by her mixing with male work colleagues, or simply believed that a woman's place was in the home. Who knows - but it has certainly been part of our own culture... until 'Women's Liberation' (as we called it, I think) began to take off.

Immigrants from male-dominated cultures are a problem - but mostly for the womenfolk from those cultures. We are hardly likely to be re-converted back to that particular culture.

It's more an issue with integration, and I do believe that is an important matter. It doesn't matter which country or which culture is involved, but I do think when you move permanently to another nation, you have to respect its culture and traditions.

Something to ponder. Sadiq Khan, when it became known that he approved same-sex marriage, received death threats from Islamists here in the UK. These things are not talked about because (a) of the fear of stirring up a hornet's nest and (b) it's seen as xenophobic and Islamophobic.

If these allegations are true - and I think they are, I believe the Police were involved - then to ignore them is storing up future problems. Level-headed people know these Islamists are a minority, they are not representative of the majority. But multi-culturalism will not work if cultures do not respect each other or abide by the host nation's laws. What might the end result be? Factional antagonism and extremism - on both sides, leading to instability.

However, let's not forget that there are native white British men who cannot tolerate their wives' or partners' independence from them, sometimes with fatal - for the women - results.

These are controversial matters. But they cannot be ignored.

I agree with most of what you say but not when you mention that men from male dominated cultures are mostly a threat to their own women. You only have to look back at the dreadful grooming gangs in the UK. All the men were from male dominated cultures who preyed on white, vulnerable girls, not their own young girls.
Perhaps we should take a leaf out of France's book. They sent a cleric and his family who had lived in France for 40 years back to Tunisia for making insulting remarks about the French flag. Perhaps the UK should adopt that attitude.

Yes, the French did not hang around, did they? That is the way to stamp on any problematic behaviour and provide a deterrent.

We also were deeply traumatised with The Push and like others on here, went thro all the pain endured by the poor mother. That monsters arrogance actually helped the Police with the conviction, he made many mistakes. We also wondered why she went to Edinburgh with him, but we will never know. Fawziyah was very clever tho in other ways, as if she was speaking from the grave, leaving a trail of very telling evidence.
The defence barrister even referred to the disgusting behaviour of his client. It’s true that it’s not just male dominated cultures that adhere to the barbaric and medieval practises of keeping women under control. No one can help the family they are born into, and I guess most grow up believing their family behavioural traits are “normal”. I think the schools could do a lot more to get the message across to both sexes that in the UK, no one has a right to control another.

Primrose53

For those on here who want to close their eyes to the fact that honour based crimes are carried out by other cultures (in this case Muslims) here is the charity that supported the lovely Mum and also the late Shakirya and they clearly explain that it is men from other cultures that carry out these crimes.

karmanirvana.org.uk/get-help/what-is-honour-based-abuse/

You will recall seeing a lady from the charity supporting the Mother in court.

Yes, we all know all kinds of men kill women but in this case it was clearly an honour based killing which is part of their culture. If the TV and the charity can recognise this I fail to see why you can’t. It’s no good pretending it doesn’t happen.

Well said Primrose. Whilst men in all cultures kill women, in the UK it is seen as aberrant and abhorrent whilst in some cultures it is accepted and considered honourable. A vast difference in values that is ignored to the detriment of women suffering from those twisted values.

I so agree with you MOORLIKEIT and PRIMROSE 53.