Probate/ letters of administration ( no will)

Honeydo You do have to register the death within 5 days, but you do not have to sort the letters of administration out in 5 days. Nor are your responsible for sorting out the estate because you are the eldest child, you can do it jointly with your brother, or aks him to do it all.

Here are links to 2 Age UK Fact Sheets, one on what to do when someone dies www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/information-guides/ageukig03_when_someone_dies.inf.pdf and the other on dealing with an estate.www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs14_dealing_with_an_estate_fcs.pdf

Download and read these, skipping the sections that do not apply.

I think it would be wise for you to employ a solicitor to sort your mother's estate out because of the problems with your brother and the house, You may have to make some hard decisions.

Is the house valuable enough for your brother to buy a small alternative home if it is sold, a one bedroomed flat for example? Presumably he will not be oaying child support for ever, so when that stops what is there to stop him taking out a mortgage to buy him out.

As for sharing the care and cost of maintaining the house. That is up to you, but if he was my brother, he would be told that if he is staying there, then that is all entirely his repsonisbility.

I really do advise you to see a solicitor, despite the cost a case like this is what solicitors are here for. He can both negotiate with your brother to sort the problem out, give him the bad news if the house does have to be sold and protect you if your brother endeavours to bully or intimidate you into agreeing to things that re not in your best interest.

Does your brother work

We need Germanshepherdsmum to come along in time to confirm or contradict this:

He should not be throwing things away. Most things have a value even if only worth a few pennies or pounds sold at a car boot sale or on eBay. You don’t have to be absolutely precise about it but you need to come to some rough secondhand value for your mum's household goods and chattels e.g. garden effects, linen, china, glass, books, pictures, prints, furniture, jewellery, clothes etc.

Once the coroner has concluded his or her enquiries and you have the death certificate you can organise the funeral. Ask the funeral directors to send their account to your mother’s bank who will pay the funeral directors directly from her bank account. This is normal practice.

I believe your brother could make a claim under the Inheritance Act 1975 but the Courts have made clear that the Act is not a tool to be employed by those who are merely unhappy with their share of an inheritance.

www.brethertons.co.uk/site/blog/claiming-under-the-inheritance-act-1975

I also believe that unless you can come to a mutual agreement i.e. for your brother to buy out your share, you could force a sale in court under the Trusts of Land and Appointment of Trustees Act1996.

www.webuyanyhome.com/sell-an-inherited-house/what-property-rights-do-siblings-have-following-parents-death/

If he is paying child support then I am assuming he has many working years left. If you sell the house and he ends up with a deposit of say £160,000 he could buy a flat for say £200,000 with a £40,000 mortgage which over 25 years would cost him less that £300 a month at current interest rates. If he buys you out and has to borrow £160,000, it’s going to cost him around £1,100 a month for 25 years. He could end up paying more in council tax and running costs for the house than it would cost to pay a mortgage and running costs for a small flat.

I believe the IHT threshold can increase to £500,000 if the home is left to children:

www.gov.uk/inheritance-tax/passing-on-home

Obtaining Letters of Administration should be a relatively straightforward matter once you have had the house valued and drawn up a statement of assets and liabilities. In theory you could still get on with that part of it as LoA is just giving you authority to manage the estate in accordance with the law but doing that part is clearly going to be difficult becasue of your brother's stance so you need to engage a lawyer.

A protracted legal battle will cost thousands of pounds. Maybe it's all to soon and your brother isn't thinking clearly or panicking about what's going to happen to him. My advice would be to organise you mum's funeral, celebrate her life then sit down with him to look at the numbers. He may see that it makes sense to get his own place rather than to start a legal battle that he is likely to lose, damaging your relationship and leaving you both worse off.

Thank you for the replies and links.

My brother does work. But he doesnt have a well paid job. Once of the reasons he came home after splitting from his wife was that he couldnt afford a mortgage and he is not a "Saver " by inclination, he never has been. The divorce didnt leave him anything either other than paying child support. He pays far more than he should because it shut his wife up and gave him access to his child , who does come to grans house three times a week and in school holidays. ( Had he done the proper thing and divorced her back at the beginning he could have sued for adultery but he just left. Not that you need those details. She divorced him ten years later on a no fault , no contest thingy). I guess he would want to move his boy in as he is a teenager and old enough to make a decision on that now. He has a room at grannys, he has to share at his mums ( he has two half siblings) . He is in sixth form now.

How he would manage to even get a mortgage on his income, I am not sure. ( Not that I am any better, I dont have a well paid job either but I tend to scrape the pennies).

I dont want to throw him out of mums house. But I cant see how I can pay for two homes either. From her money savings, we wouldnt get much each ( lets assume we do not pay IHT - but I am sure the house may be worth something , even though it needs loads doing - its certainly a fixer upper at best and it needs wiring, insulation, repair etc.).

I am not sure her household effects are worth much. I did contact a house clearer just for information and found out they would likely charge me for removing her effects - sofa etc.
( £350) as little or nothing is saleable , second hand or otherwise.

As I said, she didnt have much as she always called it "clutter". She got into minimalism when it was a trend a few years back. Also, a number of things got broke in recent weeks when she couldnt grip anything anymore. But OK, maybe at a car boot sale, we might get £30 at 50p or a quid or a two. Its not cost . Its not the money . There are a couple of things I would like as memories which clearly in law I wont get now. Its just my brother wants to tidy up and wipe mum out of her own home I feel. I did tell him to stop. But he lives there.

She has a nice new rise and recline chair I got her just a few weeks ago but ironically, she has died and has not paid me for it ( I dont care. I dont want to take it away), so effectively, thats mine, or rather the bill is when it comes in ( credit card payment from my card).

She didnt have much linen . Bed linen has been ruined. She had a massive intestinal bleed in bed the night before she died and all of that has had to go. She had one wash and one change bed stuff. It was a bit of a mess. She didnt have table cloths and things.

I am just worried her death is going to cost us and my husband is getting on at me as I ( we) will end up paying from our hard saved money because we wont be able to get it off mums estate. I dont want to sell the house, if we dont have to. I dont want to have to sell it immediately either to settle her probate or whatever either, but I know a a couple of thousand and half a house my brother occupies isnt the best deal for me.

In fact I would even buy him out of the house by selling my own and going there and solving it that way but he doesnt want to leave the house. If we do not have to pay IHT, then obviously, I can take a share of the money in the savings and I wont sniff at that . But the house is worth more than her savings.

You need to see a Solicitor, they put an ad in a newspaper asking for anyone who your Mother owed money too to get in touch, as she died Intestate you need proper legal advice
You cant just plough on as you are, you need legal advice which you will have to pay for, but they will tell you all you need to know unlike us GNers (germanshepherdsdogsmum hasn’t popped up yet).

honeydo Reading your response, the feeling I get is that your brother dominates you and you feel he has to be placated.

If he has been married and divorced then he is fully adult and must takre responsibility for his own life. If he is 'not a saver by inclination' well that is his problem, and should not play any part in decisions about what happens with the house.

In a situation like this where you have a brother behaving like a large sized cuckoo in the nest, then what you must do is employ a solicitor to deal with the winding up of the estate. This way he will deal with your brother directly and you will be able to step aside from any disagreements you.

In fact I cannot see any alternative to using a solicitor. You clearly know nothing about needs to be done in winding up an estate, and when there is no will that makes it more complicated. It is essential you put this work in a solicitor's hands.

Make sure that the solicitor handling the estate is a specialist in this field. Any reputable soliciotr's firm will have solicitors specialising in this field or will direct you to an approrpiate practioner.

The solicitor's fees will be paid from the estate.

Sorry for your loss

I agree with others that you should put it all in the hands of a solicitor. First of all, you will benefit from their professional knowledge and skills. Secondly, it will take all the emotion out of it. Grief is difficult enough without the added stress of administering the estate and the disagreement with your brother.

The death should not cost you anything because all the expenses, including the solicitor's fees, should come out of the estate. You absolutely should not be penalised because you are a saver and your brother is a spender by nature.

Thank you for the replies. Had mum written a will I suspect it would only have said that her house and money were to be divided equally anyway, so I would still have the same problem.

If I have to get a solicitor , the fee wont be coming out of the house, it will be from mums savings ( assuming we do not hit the tax threshold). So, I am still left half owner of a house that I cannot do anything with. Otherwise I have to pay the solicitor and I end up using my savings to do that.

I doubt my brother would co operate. He didnt want mum to have an expensive funeral. She is being buried. Dad is already there. But when it came to things like flowers, he just wanted a cross on the coffin. I asked if I might order, at my expense additional wreaths and he was totally against the waste of money. So, now mum will only have a cross instead of flowers to cover her grave when she is buried. But I guess , such is the way people think these days.

I am guessing that I am likely, whatever way, to end up with half the money and nothing else. The house will be a " Name only" thing with him and his son living there. I gathered this morning my brother has already invited his latest lady around for the weekend! His son is there too. They are talking about how they will spend Christmas there. If I have an argument. I wont even see the house again I suspect. If he does the registration and Lof A alone, he would likely forget to tell them I existed if I argue. Mum wouldnt want me to argue anyway.

But thanks to all. At least I can see where I stand.

honeydo, you say there is no will, but are you 100% sure of that? Would your mum definitely have told you if she had made one?

And if you haven't done it yet, inform her bank(s) etc. of her death ASAP., so that your brother can't go helping himself.

Your mother’s death should not leave you out of pocket for anything to do with the house or any personal debt. Any unpaid debts up to the day she died, say, for example, if she hadn’t paid last month’s energy bill, plus the cost of her funeral are charges on her estate. Some charges are waived on death. If she had say a credit card bill, that might be waived. Ask the provider. You say there is £14,000 in the bank. That sounds enough to cover immediate costs. Remember to check, if there is any life insurance to claim.

From the date of her death, the clock is ticking on what happens regarding the house. In ordinary circumstances, when a house has just had a sole occupant, it can be cleared and sold. Few if any charges would be accruing for, say, energy and water. Phone and broandband contracts can be cancelled. You’d need to keep structural insurance in place until the house is sold.

Council tax. If the property is unoccupied, it will be exempt from charges until probate or letters of administration are granted and for up to six months after that date if it remains unoccupied. After the six months, the deceased's estate has to pay the full council tax charge.

If you brother is claiming occupancy it’s going to be his responsibility to pay the bills that are being incurred while he remains. I don’t know what arrangements he had with your mother for paying for his lodgings but if he wasn’t paying much, if anything at all, he’s going to get a reality check very soon.

Under the law’s of intestacy you are entitled to half of the net value of the estate. You must consult a solictor.

Re Oldnproud's post - the bank will want to see the death certificate so get in touch will them asap and explain that there might be a short delay until the coroner has done his job. The account will be frozen until you have LoA other than to pay the funeral directors directly as explained upthread.

You will need to contact DWP about any pensions and benefits your mother was in receipt of so that they are stopped.

Note, it is illegal to continue to make payments, withdraw money, or use the bank account of an individual who has died without following the correct legal process. To withdraw money from the deceased's account, the administrator must have obtained letters of administration.

oldnproud, I am absolutely sure my mum left no will as she gave me her funeral instructions before she passed and told me then she didnt need a will .

Everything was to be shared equally. ( She knew a bit about intestacy as my granddad died without a will . She knew it would mean we shared everything and she knew also - most important because of something that happened to any aunt- that her wishes that only myself and my brother got everything could not be contested in a court. Its the law of the land and that is it.

I am not so sure she thought my brother would want to stay in the house as he always said he didnt like kit and he had a lady friend so she anticipated him marrying again. My brother told me after she passed that even if he married he wanted to keep the house as a place to return if things went wrong because he has a bit of a track record in things going wrong and him being out on his ear, with nothing..

Mum saw and heard of so many wills being argued over and court cases abounded in the news. ( I am sure you know). She felt anything with a will would be automatically fought over by all and sundry.

I know mum had no debts ( other than her new chair - I paid for on my credit card). Mum had been housebound for 18 months. She worked in cash. Of course her council tax and such will need to be paid by me ( my brother cant afford that) .

Even if charged to the estate, at the end of the day, I will end up paying as the money in savings is all there is. The house will tie up forever ( reading another thread with a similar situation here).

No one is taking any money out of my mums bank . I am reluctant to freeze anything - what happens to the interest she gets paid into her current account from her saving account if the account is frozen? I am currently paying all expenses and running costs as they arise.

honeydo The solicitor's fees can be paid from the proceeds of selling the house.

I am unclear why you are so subservient to your brother. being prepared to undergo all kinds of problems and difficulties in order for him to stay in the house.

If your brother was disabled or vulnerable in some way it would be understandable but he isn't. As I read it, he is a perfectly normal physically and mentally healthy man of middling years who has a job, but is divorcxed and paying maintenance. He would have to have managed to find and pay for somewhere to live if his mother had not been fortunately situated to provide him with an, I presume, free home with her.

Now the situation has changed, your mother has died and the house needs to be sold to distribute the estate. There are few parts of the country where a three bedroomed house sells for less than £300,000. He will come out of the sale with £125,000, which in some places will buy a 1 bedroomed flat outright.

Almost anywhere £125,000 plus a mortgage of under £100,000 buys a one bedroomed flat. That means a monthly mortgage repayment of around £500 a month. Renting will cost twice that.

Your situation is really quite simple, your mother has died intestate. You need to speak to a solicitor to sort out the Letters of Adminstration, wind up the estate, liquidize the assets and distribute the proceeds.

The only thing stopping this happening is your brother, living in your mothers house for free, wanting to stay there and expecting you to deal with all the difficulties this will cause you and expecting you to share the cost of his remaining in the house.

What you haven't explained is why you are so willing to go along with his outrageous demands.

The house will tie up forever.

No, it will not if you go through the correct procedures and take legal advice.

It was foolish of your mum not to make a will. She could have made it crystal clear that the house had to to be sold and that you each inherited 50% of her net estate i.e. after any debts including her funeral costs were paid. Or, if she was amenable to your brother remaing, she should have stipulated how and when you were to receive your share.

She could have appointed professional executors to relieve you of the burden of sorting everything out. To all intents and purposes it sounds like a very simple and straightforward estate but for your brother’s selfishness.

You are not his keeper nor are you responsible for his messy life. The notion that the house has to be kept just sitting there in case he makes a mess of his next relationship is absurd. You would both potentially be accruing a capital gains tax liability on a property that isn't being used as anybody’s principle private residence.

This is a difficult and emotional time. As I said before, after the funeral, it will be time for him to come to his senses about this.

It was foolish of your mum not to make a will. She could have made it crystal clear that the house had to to be sold and that you each inherited 50% of her net estate

I have been thinking about this. I am not so sure mum really would have dictated in any will that my brother give up his place in her home. He would have nowhere to go and she would know that. I think she would have said we owned the house half each but he was entitled to live there. Back to square one. But of course she never put that down.

It never occurred to me. Part of the problem is that I think both my brother and I thought there was more money. I thought she had as much money in the bank as the house was worth ( or close). That way, I would have had the money and my brother the house . All settled. That was what I expected. But it isnt there anymore.

I had not realised, as things are now coming out of the woodwork , that she bought my brother a new car ( I mean new) about a year or so ago and thats taken a fair chunk. She bought herself a car before that and gave my brother a loan of some kind I am gleaning too ( nothing in writing) He never paid her any rent. I do know. Then there was the house extension for him to have a bed and sitting room area at one end of the house . That certainly must have cost. It was to add value to the house I thought.

So, I am thinking now..... maybe she did intend I should get nothing. I looked after her. I did all her shopping. I even cleaned her house every week for 18 months when she started to become immobile. I didnt do it for any money. I did it because I was her daughter and she needed me. I was there when she died. I held her hand. washed her face, cleaned her up when she had the bleed. She never said a word about the house . I never knew. I didnt ask. I assumed it was equal dibs ( and in a way it is - I get half the house! I dont get the value of half of the house in money).

I have a feeling now, thinking about it, she just thought I was well set up and didnt need anything after all I saved all my life, I worked all my life. I am married. My brother has hit the rocks in marriage and needs taking care of. So maybe she did intend this to be the outcome. It was her home, who am I to tell her what to do with it? Who am I to ask for anything from it? I will have my name on the deeds at the end if it goes through as it looks like going. So, I will have half a house out there to pass on when I die.

I might get half the money after all expenses have been paid ( what £5K?) . Will that get me a new carpet and a kitchen? I have wanted those for so long. My kitchen is 1950's. The money was put into the house and given to my brother for his car. That was her decision. I have to accept it. She wasnt stupid.

Its just my feelings getting in the way and getting hurt here. I thought I would have enough to do my own house up a bit ( like hers it has deteriorated and become a bit of a fixer upper as they say in America). I shouldnt have expected anything then I wouldnt be upset.

I cant see anything to be gained by fighting it.

Thanks for the advice people, but after realising today now ( its nearly a week, she died last Wednesday) she thought it would be OK and I am supposed to take care of my brother and let him live in the house and whoever outlives the other, gets it all.

Mums gone. Thats it. I have lost the person I went shopping with, went out with, did things with. In the end the money doesnt matter. I wont bring her back. It doesnt change things.

tbh sooner or later my brother will run out of money, he wont keep the house as he wont afford it and then , when he sells I get my half? It wont be worth it. It is what it is. Thank you for the advice and for listening to me.

What you haven't explained is why you are so willing to go along with his outrageous demands.

He is younger than me.

He is and always was mums favourite . She always looked after him and has left me to do the same ( two failed marriages where he has been taken to the cleaners. He doesnt do well with such things. Thats why I have half a house - not its value , to ensure he has a place to come back to that he cannot p ss up and lose it).

Mum thought I was OK off. I never said how I needed anything and she knew we ( my husband and I) had some savings. In mums book, I dont need anything my brother does.

Also, if I start procedings with a solicitor it is obvious my brother could change the locks and lock me out of mums home.

There are some things in the house that are mine. Not mums, but mine. Left there I accept but mine still. I wont be able to take them if I cannot get in. Since my brother is tidying and moving things , binning things - I need to get my things out before he bins them and I cannot at the moment.

Why can’t you? He has no right to stop you.
You have to change your attitude and not let him walk all over you.
Get a solicitor involved, who will ensure you both get what is due to you under the laws of intestacy. Why should you accept any less?

I’m very concerned reading this that grief is causing you not to see things properly. You are not your feckless brother’s keeper. You will get 50% so see a solicitor asap and stop putting worries in place and just do it. Sorry to be blunt but you need rough love right now. It’s in your brother’s interests that you feel this way but not yours. Please don’t look back at this and regret not getting professional advice, it really is in both of your interests. I feel for you, your grief is very strong right now, so huge hugs from me xxx

Please get a solicitor involved. Your brother is being unfair and your grief is stopping you thinking clearly. Your Mum is unlikely to have meant you to receive nothing. She was simply confused about the benefits of making a will. You are entitled to half and that’s what you should get.

Each person is entitled to leave £375,000 tax relief but if leaving everything directly to children and grand children another £175,000 is added to this. Also your father had the same tax free benefit to leave. So if this wasn’t used upon his death this would also be added.
In your case therefore I would get a valuation of the bungalow from two agents.. contact Age Concern or Citizens Advice and then sit down for a serious conversation with your brother. Explain that involving solicitors will cost thousands that you don’t need to pay. Also that if he stays in the bungalow he is depriving you if your inheritance and no way will you be contributing to the upkeep of the property. The best solution and the legal one would be to sell up and split the money. This should give him enough to buy a small flat which he could more easily maintain. If he refuses make it clear the situation will have to be resolved by a solicitor and this will be costly for him and yourself.

honeydo It is clear that all your life you have come second to your brother in your mother's regard and because this preference has been a given all your life you have yourself bought into it and accepted that in everything you must sacrifice everything that is dear to you to look after your brother. Unfortunately your brother has traded off his position as mother's darling and is trying to continue this after your mothers death by bullying you into doing everything he wants, as you always did when your mother was alive.

Your mother has now died, which is a cause of deep grief to you. But you need now to step back and try and look at the current situation objectively.

Your mother chose not to make a will. It was clearly her conscious decision. You mention that she didn't make one because she knew that under the intestacy laws her estate would be shared equally between her two children. In other words she wanted you to have half her assets - and these include the house.

As I have said in previous posts. Dealing with an intestacy is complicated and the dangers of misfilling in forms or doing things that are not legal is high, when, as with you, you have no knowledge at all of how to set about doing these things.

If you get anything wrong, you could end up in court and having to pay fines or reparations. You are going to have to use a solicitor to deal with the legal side of sorting out the intestacy. You need to get the solicitor to deal with the division of the estate as well.

You say that if you involve a solicitor, your brother may change the locks and you have personal possessions in the house. the solution to that is simple, go round to the house as soon as you can to remove all your belongings - and then go to the solicitor.

Once everything is in the hands of the solicitor, step back and let hm do all the communicating with your brother on legal matters. I suspect that what will happen is that your brother will try to bluster and bully you, but he will comply with the solicitor's nstructions and vacate the house when it is sold because there are legal sanctions a solicitor can use if he does not comply.

honeydo The fact that you have come on GN and described your problem means that you know in your heart of hearts that what your brother is trying to force upon you after your mother's death is wrong, but you have never opposed your late mother or brother in your life before and the thought of doing it now is frightening and you need moral support from others to tell you that putting everything in the hands of the solicitor and insisting the house is sold is the right thing to do.

Well it is.

I am sorry this post is so long, but there was a lot that needed to be said.

Please take Monica's advice, you would be playing into your brothers hands if you do not, and you will lose out.
I know you are grieving but you you must look after yourself including the financial affairs. Please stop letting your brother dictate.
You have recieved good advice on this forum. In your position I would take it, but of course it is up to you.